Color Arizona

Joe Biden won Arizona. But, as the Duke of Wellington said of the Battle of Waterloo, "it was the nearest run thing you ever saw in your life." Biden prevailed with about 11,000 votes, or 0.3 percentage points, over the most criminal and dangerous president in American history.

Mark Kelly's victory in the Senate race was easier to foresee. Kelly is a former combat pilot and NASA astronaut, as well as husband of former Rep. Gabby Giffords, who was the victim of an assassination attempt.

Martha McSally, his opponent, had already lost a Senate race to Kyrsten Sinema and was appointed Senator by Gov. Doug Ducey in a cynical partisan attempt to give her the advantage. Didn't work, Doug. For the first time since 1952, Arizona has two Democratic U.S. Senators. Otherwise, of the nine congressional districts in the state Democratic incumbents won five.

So does Arizona become a "magenta state," as the New York Times put it? Not quite.

Despite heavy Democratic turnout and Latino activism, Republicans maintained control over the Legislature. More about this later.

Mark Noble, chief pollster of OH Predictive Insights, told the Times, "It’s certainly not blue, and I’m not even sure it’s purple, it’s magenta, or the lightest shade of red. If there was such a Democratic surge, we would have seen in down ballot, but you didn’t see that impact."

My friend Ian Danley, executive director of Arizona Wins, an organization that coordinated the work of more than two dozen liberal groups focused on voter outreach, gave credit for the Biden and Kelly wins to this grassroots effort.

He told the Times, "Arizona from a policy perspective is going to be really complicated, but I don’t think the public is going to fall in line with the current Republican leadership. Here we offer a kind of model, but we’re not Democrats, we don’t walk around with a Democratic flag or even a candidate. Ultimately, voters don’t always connect the issues with the party, that’s a disconnection that has to be fixed."

I hope so. Arizona has large numbers of independents. But the label is misleading. Research has shown that the overwhelming majority of voters who register as independents consistently vote as conservatives or liberals.

A big question is whether Arizona is really changing or the verdict of 2020 was similar to the backlash against the unpopularity of Harry Truman in 1952 (who in retrospect, of course, has a sterling reputation and was nothing like Trump). At the time, Truman's presidency dragged down Ernest McFarland and allowed Barry Goldwater's win. That, rather than the common misconception that the population influx, was the biggest factor working against Mac (who came back and was elected Governor). Later in the 1950s, newcomers did begin to tilt Arizona to the GOP.

Even so, Arizona was a competitive state until the 1990s. By that time it was an exemplar of Bill Bishop's theory of The Big Sort. It posits that more and more, people cluster together among those who share the same political and lifestyle views. So, large numbers of Midwesterners and Californians moved to Arizona. But most came to be with their right-wing coreligionists. (And studies also indicate that the Californians who come are less educated and skilled than those who stay or move to the Golden State). Arizona's huge cohort of retirees are majority conservatives and they vote.

The result has been decades of dominance by Republicans as governors (St. Janet was an outlier) and in control of the Legislature. The latter is the strongest body of state government. As a consequence, Arizona is behind on almost every measure of economic and social well-being — aggressively so.

The Republicans and their voters are happy with the poorest schools in the country, badly paid teachers, insane sprawl, more freeways, no serious water policy, keeping Phoenix the largest city in North America with no Amtrak service, a weak safety net, and denying climate change. Anything, anything, to keep the Ponzi scheme going, with championship golf. Any progress, such as light rail (WBIYB) comes from the municipal level.

The armed right-wing "protesters" intimidating the election workers in downtown Phoenix? That's a feature, not a bug, of Arizona politics.

It’s telling that for all the press “Latino activists” garnered, the Legislature remains red. The Legislature that passed SB 1070. Flip the Legislature and I’ll believe.

Meanwhile, of course Kelly will have to be a centrist to be viable for re-election in two years. Sinema's success has come from being an old-fashioned Arizona "pinto." Anybody who expects the woke revolution to come from Arizona is deluding themselves. The same is true nationally.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments

[Rich Weinroth]

Good reality check. I wish reality was different, but unfortunately you are yet again correct. Arizona still leans Republican, but quality Democrat candidates who can attract independents can win. But it still takes very hard work and not slogans, especially the stupid ones emanating from the woke crowd. 2022 will be a real test of reality with an open Governor's race and Kelly up for a 6 year term. Hopefully the Republicans will be stupid enough to nominate people like Kelli Ward, but I wouldn't count on it.

[Cal Lash]

I found Rusty Bowers comments about Trump and the Arizona Election Results and Rudy Giuliani and the Arizona legislature shutdown interesting.
The GOP in Arizona will stay strong with retired White Christians and LDS folks. They got control of the Gold and the water.

[100 Octane]

"Good reality check..."

X2. Along with the fact that it was so close despite trump being, well, trump.

"control of the Gold and the water..."

Very good Cal. Although I wonder what Barry would think of all this.

[Ruben]

The current AZ GOP is in the spell of trump through his brainless cult operatives of Lesko, Biggs, Gosar, Ward and Townsend. These five are an embarrassment to the state of AZ.

The only way to rid ourselves of these idiots is to have a wave of independents flush them out of office.

Waiting for this independent wave to occur has a scientific name. It’s called the LWFHTV period. ( Like Waiting For Hispanics To Vote).

Like our drought, the LWFHTV period can last anywhere from twenty to one hundred years.

[IA_Ed]

Are the Hispanics in AZ cut from the same cloth as the Tejanos in TX? A majority of them evidently voted GOP.

[Cal Lash]

100 Octane, re Goldwater.
Before or after Susan? 1992.
Note:
Use of word Hispanic.
Many "Spaniards" i know are Republicans.
Most Mexicans i know are Democrats.
In "A Brief History of Phoenix"
Spaniards were invisible.

[IA_Ed]

Thanks, Cal (I think).

Different topic: Rogue wrote "So, large numbers of Midwesterners and Californians moved to Arizona." This brought to mind a comment from a Midwesterner who spends every January–March in San Diego (though maybe not this winter). I asked him "Isn't it more expensive to rent there in the winter? A lot of people want to escape the cold." He replied, "No, it's cheaper. In the summer a lot of Arizonans go there to escape the heat."

[Ruben]

IA_ED,

Yes

[Cal Lash]

In Maricopa County "Hispanics or Latinos" there was an increase in voting from 46 to 52 percent. Arizona went from red to red with a blue tint.
If you have an interest in Mexico and the US news, try Frontera List.

[Cal Lash]

In 58 it was cheap to stay in Diego.
And it was quiet
In 91 it was $300 a nite.
And was crowded, noisy and in danger of being ran over by weed smoking skateboarders.
Havent been back since!

[mark sanchez]

Good insights, Jon, especially on this point: any Arizona turnaround won't be complete until voters turn the state legislature blue.
I almost feel the victories of Joe Biden and Mark Kelly reflect the very lousy opponents in their races.. not so much a changed electorate. At least, not yet.

[Azreb]

The legislature can’t change because of two big dem messages.

1. Rural Arizona, we offer you nothing. You’re welcome.

2. Legal Hispanics, We love illegals more than we love you. You’re welcome.

[DoggieCombover]

I have given up on trying to understand how someone votes for, say Gosar, despite ethics violations that were censured by the House of Reps. Do you know how egregious offenses must be for that to happen? Almost anything is tolerated by those good ole boys clubs on the Hill.

And then 70+ million somehow find it in their hearts to vote for Trump after 4 years of his criminal antics on full display.

Most alarming item I saw this week, a poll that found only 3% of Republicans think Biden won the election fairly. That is truly the definition of a cult when whatever the supreme leader says is accepted unquestioningly and unthinkingly, no matter what the facts are.

Favorite moment of the week, the bootlicking toady Ducey getting thrown under the bus by Trump in a heartbeat when he was no longer of use to him.

[Cal Lash]

DOG,
Try this:
https://www.cjr.org/covering_climate_now/why-democrats-lose-on-social-media-while-republicans-lie-and-win-big.php

[soleri]

I vacillate between calling Trump supporters moronic cultists and culturally panicked peasants. Yes, race is one prism through which to view their discontent. The problem is that it doesn't fully capture the depth of their alienation. They may not like minorities that much but what drives them crazy is the idea that America is no longer a fortress of common identity so much as a free-for-all of divergent tastes and styles. Liberals may celebrate its diversity but conservatives shudder before its implacable logic of cultural impoverishment.

White Americans craving stability and order is hardly a mystery. Trump understood this from the beginning, which is why he played the xenophobia card so unrelentingly. All the vaunted principles of Reagan-era conservatives easily gave way to this deeper anxiety about cultural coherence. It's not even unique to America, as anyone can see in the worldwide rush to authoritarianism. It's almost as if we collectively reached a point of maximal complexity after which there is only resistance and reaction.

America faces an inflection point where the interrelated crises of identity, culture, income inequality, and climate change converge to make the future bleak and foreboding. This is why the left is utterly delusional when it demands boldly expansive policies that can only deepen this rift in the national psyche. Our democracy is weakening dramatically and can barely tolerate the stress of a national election. America's political paralysis is already at a crisis point. In another 10 years, democracy might collapse altogether.

[Jon7190]

DoggieCombover, I haven't seen that poll. I saw one by Rasmussen that said that 75% of Republicans and even 30% of Democrats think the election was likely stolen from Trump (47% overall). That was prior to the multiple state hearings and a whole lot of info coming to light generally, so I don't doubt it's higher now. And,IMO, they think so for good reason, beyond simply because Trump says so. I would be happy to elaborate on some of those reasons if anybody is interested.

Undoubtedly there is a large portion of the public who don't trust this outcome. There is a very simple way to resolve this: aggressive transparency. E.g. allow extensive signature checks observed by all parties, allow all the ballots to be examined by all parties, allow independent forensic examination of any or all voting machines, provide all video surveillance of all vote counting facilities. ANY of the above has been almost non existent. It hasn't gotten much publicity yet, but in the Arizona lawsuit the judge ordered a sample signature match. It came back with the Republican expert saying 6% of signatures didn't match and the Democrat expert saying 11% didn't match. Extrapolated to all absentee ballots, that would far exceed the margin of victory. The judge quickly changed the signature standard for exclusion and dismissed the suit. It continues on appeal, though, now with that new very powerful evidence.

Soleri said, "Our democracy is weakening dramatically and can barely tolerate the stress of a national election. America's political paralysis is already at a crisis point. In another 10 years, democracy might collapse altogether." I totally agree with that. It seems another casualty of COVID has been trust in our election (let me know if that needs explanation). The people need transparency badly if this election is to be a positive development and not another blow to our republic.

[Cal Lash]

Not to worry Jon7190.
Texas AG Ken Paxton is on it.

[soleri]

Jon7190, you do realize that signature checking four million ballots because your sleazeball president alleges "fraud" is, well, impossible? The Electoral College meets on Monday. The Supreme Court already dispensed with a bad-faith suit against Pennsylvania citizens this morning. In other words, it's all over. As much bullshit as Trump as spewed over the past four years, it's understandable that his followers have adopted his bad habits. But this is cult-level insanity. Trumpism is a toxin in our civic soul.

[Bill Pearson]

I was just on my way off to bed and read Jon's comments. My initial reaction was to ignore it...humor him. Nope, sorry, can't/won't tolerate the absolute stupidity of the lies and nonsense spread across the net these days.

Post the links to the 30% of the dems who think the election was stolen from trump. Post the stories of the election errors of mismatched signatures. Better yet, get all of this proof over to Kelli Ward so she doesn't continue to look like a braid-dead moron. Nice, Ducey, now part of the "deep state." God help us all.

Trump had the right to his day in court...they've proved nothing, nada, zip. It's time to quit trying to placate this overgrown man-child and let the adults get to work fixing the absolute mess he has made of this country.

This is nothing more than the con artist scamming his idiot followers (is he at 300 million yet?). Sorry Jon, you have always been willing to have reasonable discussions. We're way past the point of putting up with trump's bullying, whining and fund raising. The simple truth is more people hated him than loved him.

Bullshit is sill bullshit no matter how nice you try and package it. Always was, always will be.

[Jon7190]

Ok, here it is. Bill, how horrible Trump has been or how much bullshit he or his followers have said is irrelevant, except perhaps as a distraction to those who want so badly to be rid of him that they are willing to look past all the issues with this election. Democrats should be the ones out front demanding open verification, because who wants to have their president serve under a cloud of doubt? If roughly half of the populace thinks the election was illegitimate, that will do more harm to our democracy than all the things Trump has ever done or been accused of doing put together. That's pure toxin injected into our civic bloodstream.

Looking online on the topic can get overwhelming due to volume. Here's some of the best I've found (and believe me I've looked at a lot!)
- http://www.hereistheevidence.com/ is a crowdsourced compilation of 2020 election evidence and accusations for use by professionals and amateurs, with links, giving the reader the ability of looking further into each one. Reasonably user friendly format.
-More user friendly but less exhaustive: https://everylegalvote.com/home
-The Texas Supreme Court suit that Cal mentioned actually is a pretty good summation of the best evidence to date. It is about 100 pages long, but here is a well-explained 20 minute video covering the highlights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-tb11okydc
-I challenge anyone who thinks there is no justification for questioning the election to spend a little time and watch an assortment of the affiant testimony from the hearings in AZ, MI, PA or GA (easily searchable). Keep in mind that these are real people going on record, publicly on video, and swearing in lawsuits under penalty of perjury. That's no small thing in this era of canceling, doxxing and rioting.

-The statistical anomalies are voluminous and amazing, and the deeper you dig the more anomalous they get. The election broke most all the statistical rules. Essentially Biden's electoral margin comes from a handful of metro areas in key swing states. Was that due to fraud? Was it a natural outgrowth of mass absentee voting? Was is maybe a little of both owing to the influence of the Center for Technology and Civic Life? (that's a previously tiny and obscure organization that Mark Zuckerberg injected with ~$350 million and provided funding to city and county election boards in key swing cities and dictated how the money should be spent, a scheme that was probably legal but constitutionally very questionable). Here's a good article summarizing stats: https://spectator.us/reasons-why-the-2020-presidential-election-is-deeply-puzzling/
More on CTCL: https://pjmedia.com/jchristianadams/2020/12/02/the-real-kraken-what-really-happened-to-donald-trump-in-the-2020-election-n1185494
I you really want to get into the weeds and blow your mind, try this one: https://100percentfedup.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/486098384-Michigan-Vote-Analysis.pdf

In general, I would just say that in a situation where absentee voting was massively expanded and most of the absentee voting integrity safeguards were removed in key swing states, the system was set up to fail. Doing universal mail-in voting isn't simple or easy, just ask Washington State, which has worked hard for a long time to have a decent system. Swing states that had expanded but still strict absentee systems like Florida, Ohio and Texas somehow avoided most of the problems, and probably not coincidentally had comfortable Trump victories.

Many prominent voices have been telling people for five years that Trump is literally Hitler and he will destroy our country if not the world. Is it hard to believe that some people would take that message to heart and take advantage of the situation? After all, what wouldn't you do to stop Hitler? Was there enough to swing the election in critical states with razor thin margins? The information linked above suggests there may very well be, and absent the transparency I mentioned before, a dangerously large portion of the public is going to believe there was. When the key counties and states from election day on have done everything they can to confound and prevent transparency, what are people to think of that behavior?

Even if you discount the possibility of organized or systemic voting fraud schemes, there is good evidence that if improper or illegal (but not necessarily intentionally fraudulent) absentee ballots were excluded at historic rates, it would more than cover the tiny margin in enough states to turn the results.

Again, transparency, please! And yes, Solari, the time is getting short. Transparent signature matches should have happened weeks ago, however, the system was supposed to do aprox. 65 million absentee signature checks on election day so short time is really no excuse. And at this point we really only need maybe a dozen or two key counties and even a reasonably large representative sample would probably suffice.

Among the folks who can't stand the president (or who love Biden, if there are any), if they refuse to even acknowledge concerns or if they have a place in the back of their mind where they think maybe there was some impropriety or illegality that swung the election but it was worth it to defeat Trump, then our democracy may in fact be dying.

[Cal Lash]

Jon7190. Texas Attorney General, Ken Paxton is an indicted felon that has managed so far from keeping his cases from going to trials.
The voting issues raised now are something to be corrected by 2022 and 2024. Currently Trumps only hope is HIS SUPREME court or his angry mobs.

[Ruben]

If you are a registered voter in AZ and you have not noticed how our state and county election departments checks and rechecks your voting status, address, etc. all throughout the year, then you just aren't paying attention. The most accurate, secure and validated portion of our election is the mail in portion of the vote.

When you vote in person, the poll workers and volunteers do an outstanding job of verifying the status of the voter in front of them.

[Cal Lash]

"The Supreme Court of Nevada rejected an appeal late Tuesday from President Donald Trump’s campaign to overturn the election results in the state, affirming President-elect Joe Biden’s win in one of the battleground states that gave him overall victory.

It was the latest court failure for Trump and his allies, who have lost dozens of cases in state and federal courts in an unsuccessful attempt to nullify the result of the Nov. 3 election. Trump says the result was fraudulent, but no court has found evidence to support his assertions."

[Bill Pearson]

Thanks for all the links from the crank crazies posting this junk to prop up the orange guy. Do you have any legitimate news sources Jon. How about just one that isn't nonsense. How about a court case where there was any substantial proof of fraud?

The simple reality is virtually every court case has been thrown out because there was nothing attached to it. The only two they found was examples of mistakes made by poll workers.

trummp can stand and below at a mic all day long and it won't change the fact he is a loser...LOSER. Sorry, i'm just sick of the whining and foolishness stemming from his charade.

It's just nonsense. Substance Jon is always better than the sorry "proof" you linked to.

[Cal Lash]

Rep. Mike Johnson of Louisiana, a close ally of President Donald Trump,
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/09/politics/mike-johnson-letter-house-republicans/index.html
but
fellow Republican, Baton Rouge Metro Councilman John Delgado, who described Johnson as a "despicable bigot of the highest order"

[Cal Lash]

J Christian Adams said in the above pimedia.com link,
"Here’s the best part — All of this is legal. Do not allow your shock and confusion about what happened in 2020 lead you to mislabel all of this as “voter fraud” or “quasi-legal.” The Left excels at making the unprecedented real and the seemingly illegal, legal."
and
"The important point to understand is that elections are messy, and in 2020 hundreds of millions of dollars thrown at lawsuits and at election officials made the 2020 elections the messiest ever. Elections are also complicated, and you don’t always need outright fraud or communist hackers to craft a scheme to defeat Donald Trump. Why take that risk when you can do it all mostly legally by simply fundamentally transforming the entire process?

I had read the (right wing bias) Spectator article previously. It didn't convince me of anything that would change the election
outcome.

I have no expertise to comment on the uploads voter analysis.

That said, the world desires humane actions to preserve what's left of the great planet earth. Will that require humans going extinct?

[DoggieCombover]

There was fraud all right, flagrant voter suppression, gerrymandering, trying to hamstring the Postal Service, voter registration purges, reducing voting sites to levels requiring hours in line to actually vote, blah blah blah...all I might add, done by Republicans. Any questions?

[100 Octane]

So you guys don't trust a link from "100percentfedup"?

LOL.

Would be funny if it weren't so stupid, err sad, uh never mind.

"Will that require humans going extinct?"

Yes, poor people will go first.

[Cal Lash]

"Poor people first"?
Might i suggest that goat herders in the caves of the Afganistan mountains may be the survivors.
Just an opinion by your 80 year old campfire philosopher.
Oh where art thou JD, Hunter/gatherer?

[100 Octane]

Poor is relative. There are already climate refugees and they aren't from wealthy areas. But yes I get your point.

One of many examples...

https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/first-us-climate-refugees-louisiana-tribe-fights

[Cal Lash]

100 Octane, not to worry I'm working on a solution with Malthus and John Calvin.
Its called Living with Coyotes.

Louisiana tribe: Those places that border the Gulf of Mexico could use a 100 mile set back. And when the sand goes Miami will be an alligator swamp once again.
Swamp did i say swamp.
Here's to a peaceful happening on 20 January 2021. Stay safe.
Wash and "stand by" for your shot in the arm.

[B. Franklin]

There is so much garbage on the internet that I'm 100% certain that you could find a site that "proves" that JFK shot himself, that Stanley Kubrick faked the moon landings, that Hillary personally killed everyone at Benghazi, and that Elvis is alive and just waiting for the right time to make his comeback.

So, of course, there is "well researched documentation" that "proves" that Trump was the victim of a plot, run by either the Democrats, the Iranians, AntiFa, the Illuminati, or all of the above, to steal the election--if only you have eyes to see.

Me? I'm betting on Elvis.

[Cal Lash]

Franklin you left out Houdini?
What do Grand Moff Tarkin and Donald Trump have in common?
They both said "Stand by" before their world disintegrated.

[Jon7190]

Bill, I know you don't like debating a whole lot, but I have to push back a bit. Dismissing the links I posted out of hand because you don't like the source is not really confronting the issues. If you are looking for something from the New York Times, you won't find it. There is this: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/us/politics/as-more-vote-by-mail-faulty-ballots-could-impact-elections.html?auth=login-email&login=email
Worrying about the validity of absentee ballots was so 2012!

The NYT did have a big front page story in November declaring there was no evidence of fraud*, based on statements they got from all the swing state officials that their elections were very well run and clean. Hard hitting investigative journalism. The asterisk is the qualifier that there was no evidence of widespread fraud that could have swung the election. The inference there that they hope you don't spend much time thinking about is the acknowledgement that there was some fraud. How do we know how much fraud and whether or not it was determinative? That can only be found by access to the states' ballots, applications, machines, envelopes etc that no independent actors have been able to get.

There were some mainstream stories about election integrity issues prior to 11/3, but since the media declared their preferred candidate won, they want nothing to do with investigating fraud claims. Conservative and alternative media is where this info will be and dismissing that because of who they are, rather than based on the merits of the story, seems like rather circular reasoning.

100Octane, yes 100percentfedup.com is a sketchy sounding website, but that is kind of ironic criticism coming from a guy named 100Octane! That's just the link I had on hand, sorry, I should have done this one: https://www.scribd.com/document/487160101/MI-2020-Voter-Analysis-Report-1#from_embed
Like I said, they ain't going to publish this in the NYT! I believe that some of the statistics experts who did the report have also participated in some of the lawsuits.

Bill, unless I am mistaken, all the cases to date (only a handful of which have been official Trump campaign cases) have been dismissed prior to any evidentiary hearings, mostly on issues of standing. The main evidence attached to them are affidavits (which are evidence), hundreds of them. It's circumstantial and eyewitness evidence, which is how legal cases are mostly done.

I'm guessing you haven't taken the challenge to watch some of the state hearings. The witnesses are the people in the affidavits, a.k.a. the "nothing" you say was attached to the court cases. The hard data evidence of fraud that everyone would like, if it exists, is in the possession of the counties and states and getting it from them through the legal process is what the suits are all about. Citizens and campaigns are left to gather the best circumstantial data they can, such as found in this video which has been viewed widely and their very interesting data used in some of the lawsuits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH9ihoLi1NA

It's a shame that it takes an adversarial process to try to get state voting information. Wouldn't it be nice if governments said something like this, "We are confident our election was well run and honest and only eligible voters cast ballots. Please send your campaign's representatives to our facilities at the earliest opportunity and we will show you whatever you need to see to feel as confident as we are in the process. If there was anything improper that occurred, we need to work together to get to the bottom of it immediately. The citizens of our community deserve no less"

Cal, thanks for taking the time. Adams is a bonafide expert in the election law and security field and I've read and listened to him a fair amount for years prior to this election, so I take seriously his theory that the manipulation of the election was mostly through legal means. You don't think the CTCL efforts could have netted 80k in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, 20k in Milwaukee and 12k in Atlanta? It sure sounds plausible to me. I believe they were also active in Maricopa county.

[Ramjet]

I am just wondering - has anybody done the math for how many people it would require to accomomplish the actions necessary to fraduntenly change the results of the election?

Trumnp knows he lost. He is just keeping himself in the limelight. I call it "The Arpaio Syndrome"

[Bill Pearson]

Jon. I have no problem debating, but debating something that is manufactured is ludicrous on its face. This phony narrative was set up by trump well before the election was held. He knew he was in trouble and started the whining long before a vote was ever cast. His fate was sealed the day the pandemic started and he all but ignored it. Remember, it's all just going to disappear one day.

I have no interest in reliving his flaws. I have no interest in giving credence to his bullshit. There's an entire cottage industry of websites and experts that have sprung up supporting his crap. Thanks for posting some of them. I opened them and started looking for their source and damned if they were very "transparent."

This is nothing more than a money grab by trump; that and his need to be able to whine for the next 4 years he won. He didn't, he got his ass kicked. Sure, those of you who love him will be happy to die for him, but boatloads of people hated him with a passion.

This isn't about some sort of high-minded debate over right and wrong. He lost, it's over, except for those of you who buy his bullshit. We've had four years of his stupidity and it's time for him to go. We're coming up on 300,000 dead and the worst is still in front of us. Not a shred of humanity, care or concern about them, just the daily moaning from the man-child who sadly was our president.

[AzRebel]

Giuliani lives. THERE IS NO GOD.

[Cal Lash]

He died in 54.

[DoggieCombover]

Jon, as remediation for your needed cult deprogramming, I suggest you volunteer to work at the polls and in other roles such as signature checking.

I believe you would be educated and impressed by seeing patriotic Americans seriously and diligently executing one of our most important democratic jobs.

As no amount of facts can convince you otherwise, perhaps empirical evidence can. We have free and fair elections, get over it.

[Jon7190]

DoggieCombover, good point, I have actually thought I would like to work at polls sometime. It's on my list of things to do when I'm not working 55hr/week with kids at home. Guess that's why most of the volunteers seem to be retirement age!

Yes, these are good civic-minded folks who volunteer their time to be involved in the process of elections. These also happen to be quite a few of the people who have given affidavits in the lawsuits. Again, I challenge you all to watch some of the hearings and see if you can honestly say those look like dishonest people of ill will who would put themselves at personal and legal risk to give false testimony. 

I also agree that our elections are generally free and fair (though there is always some fraud, and historically some elections have certainly been stolen). The process you see with the volunteers at the polling places is beautiful and in the daylight and has always made up the bulk of our voting. 

The issue this time is that we have massively and rapidly upscaled the form of voting that has long been agreed is the most vulnerable to bad actors while simultaneously removing most all the safeguards we've used for security.

Then when the results are unusual and anolomolous, we are expected to trust the new process in the face of suspicious counting activity and credible reports of problems and efforts to block accountability. And when campaigns and others try to get access to the information that would assure us the results are legit, they are stonewalled and fought at every step. 

I appreciate the dialog, but I have not really been presented with facts here beyond simple assertions that the election was undoubtedly accurate and that I must be a kooky conspiracist to think otherwise. Forgive me if I, and millions of others, need more than that. We want transparency, and like I said before, I think it would be helpful if Democrats joined in the call for that for the long term good of the country, rather than acting like they are scared of it because maybe it would change the result. 

Rant off. Thank you.

[Cal Lash]

I suspect voting in the future will become more difficult for many folks in a majority of States.

[Helen HIghwater]

jon7190,

I noticed you used a whole paragraph because you couldn't get your fingers to actually type the words, "mail-in ballots".

Did you think if you typed the actual words, a trumpster would sneak in to your house and geld you in your sleep after your hard, 55 hour work week?

Our voter registration system is SECURE.

The HAND COUNTS done at the request of lunatic repubs has had the effect of proving that point. The recounts actually added to Biden's totals. Didn't see that coming did you bub.

So, please Mr. "I can vomit out an unbeleiveable amount words until I drown you in bullshit", what logic in your world takes secure registration and secure voting and comes out with fraud.

I'm sixty nine and lonely, care to argue in person?

[soleri]

It's borderline insane for any Republican to argue in favor of "transparency" when they make it their civic habit to suppress the vote among minorities and gerrymander in order to thwart majority rule. To then file frivolous lawsuits in order to disenfranchise millions of voters is what autocrats and traitors do, not patriots. These sore losers might be forgiven if they actually had any evidence, but they don't. What the do have is chutzpah and cynicism unrivaled in the annals of any advanced democracy.

Trump, the absolute worst president in American history, has taken a once-respectable political party and turned it into a grotesque reflection of his own obscene personality. At long last, "conservatism" is now synonymous with pathological lying, chronic whining, and utter contempt for democracy itself. If America survives their frontal attack on our most cherished values, it won't be because Republicans stood up to a tyrant named Trump but because real patriots - judges - told them to bugger off.

[Cal Lash]

Well said!

[drifter]

There are no voting pattern anomalies in the 2020 election for Wisconsin, Pennsylvania or Michingan. Each of these states had voted for the Democratic presidential candidate in every election since 1990 except for 2016. Any anomaly in voting patterns would be 2016 when those three states voted for Trump, In 2020, the three states reverted to their multi-decade voting pattern trends and selected Democratic candidate Biden. If Republicans were actually concerned about voting "anomalies" they should analyze the 2016 election. What it is is the final Trump grift while he is still in the White House. Has he reached $200 million yet in contributions from his loyal supporters to fund his post election lawsuits?

[Ramjet]

I guess Curly Bill and Ike Clanton ran the voting.

[AzRebel]

News bulletin from the delusional world of James Kunstler: The United States is surrounded by five carrier groups.............!!!!

In other news, the Navy announces five of our carrier groups are currently in their home ports.

Kunstler has long wailed that "we're running out of oil". It appears that his brain pan dipstick is sitting high and dry.

[Jon7190]

Helen, you bring up good points. This situation is frustrating for both sides. I don't mean to go on and on, but understanding this involves processing a lot of information and ideas. I have no interest in spouting BS, I'm trying to represent the genuine concerns of ~50% of the electorate and hoping some on the left might understand where we are coming from.

Not sure I'm understanding your point about mail in. I don't have a problem with the term mail in, but with the drop boxes used in many places I just go with the generic absentee (plus there's the hot button issue of ballot harvesting in some places).

Can you elaborate on how we know  registrations are secure? Are they verifying identity and eligibility, especially where they have same day and motor voter registration? Are they verifying that applications for absentee came from the actual registrant? Have they made any effort to "clean" voter rolls (i.e. not large amounts of deceased or moved)? Can we see the states records to verify all that? 

The recounts and even hand recounts are BS, because they don't ever change much at the presidential level. The hand recount seems to me to negate the idea of software vote flipping, but they don't address concerns with auditing and recanvasing. They are just recounting the ballots received, not addressing if they are valid to start with (a.k.a. garbage in, garbage out). 

The main concerns are with people registering and being approved when they aren't eligible, people applying for absentee and/or voting absentee in someone elses name (particularly where prefilled applications or ballots were sent to everyone unsolicited), and most dramatically that applications/ballots under infrequent voters names were manufactured in the 1000's or 10,000's and placed into counting centers or in the mail, possibly late election night. There are more accusations, but those are the big ones.

This is what we need the transparency on to know those things didn't happen, otherwise there will always be suspicion of chicanery. And again, obstructionism breeds suspicion. If you think we're all Trump-suckers spouting BS, just humor us by calling for proof to be released so that we look like fools when it shows there was no fraud at all!

Solari, I hear you. Personally I would gladly see a grand bargain where the left gets things they want for voting access and the right gets things they want for voting security. Gerrymandering is done by both parties.

More anolomolous PA numbers if you arent sick of links yet:  https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz-new-analysis-shows-biden-winning-nearly-impossible-margins-on-mail-in-ballots-in-pennsylvania

I promise I'll stop soon.

[Cal Lash]

Pausing is a good thing.
Stopping is giving up.
So take a break.
Catch a breathe.
Maybe a martini or two.
I'm going to take a walk.
So here's to manana.

Its been another good Rogue.

[Cal Lash]

Helen, I located your teeth.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/banksy-sneezing-woman-bristol_n_5fd34bf6c5b68ce171872c34

[Cal Lash]

The conspiracy folks will be all over why Barr sat on the Hunter Biden thing.
Had Barr decided Trump was toast and it was time to think about his (Barr) future?

[DoggieCombover]

Funny, I don't remember all this fervent self-righteousness about "transparency" and "security" four years ago? In an election that was even closer and more meddled in by foreign actors, by the way. When a loser graciously conceded the race and stepped aside.

But, this seems to have been newly discovered by the right, like I expect them to rediscover fiscal conservatism now that their drunken spree is winding down.

[soleri]

Doggie, or go back to 2000 when Al Gore was merely seeking a recount in Florida where the margin was so narrow that it could easily flip the state and thus the presidential election. What did Republicans do? Sued to stop it! The partisan US Supreme Court voted along party lines and democracy was narrowly averted.

This time, even the three Trump appointees voted against the seditious Republican attempt to overturn an election they lost decisively. The last weapon they could conceivably deploy would be a military coup, which Michael Flynn has been advocating. Is it finally safe to say that Republicans demonstrably hate America?

[Bobson Dugnutt]

Soleri, something else that's been theorized and a Newsweek article has asked this, but at this point with Trump's electoral and legal Overton windows locked shut, he might try an "Avignon presidency."

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-avignon-presidency-constitutional-scholars-1548921

Borrowing from a weird period in the Catholic Church when there were at least two men laying claim to the chair of St. Peter, there was a period when there were papacies in Rome and Avignon, France.

The modern implication would be that Trump remains president beyond 2021 because his concession (or lack thereof) confers legitimacy on the vote result. Trump might then ask the states, counties and cities that support him to swear allegiance to him as the legitimate executive. Trump-supporting states would then present themselves as sovereign nations and carry out traditionally national roles like try to establish embassies, mint a currency or, perhaps more ominously, declare their law enforcement offices a gendarmerie and confer military recognition upon them. The U.S. armed forces have signaled they won't interfere in the political transition, so Trump can't count on their support as an institution apart from supportive rogue enlistees or officers.

Contemporary examples of this include the Juan Guaido affair in Venezuela, and the more tense and longstanding Taiwan ROC-People's Republic of China schism.

[Publius]

A few comments come to mind after reading another misguided, yet well written piece by Jon. First, this was probably the poorest run election in the last one hundred years, and no, it was not even close to being "secure" whether digitally or physically. Second, Jon mentions the wave of Californian's migrating to Arizona in the 90's and that studies show that people who migrate from California generally are less educated and skilled overall. While this may have been true then, or still could be true today, it sure doesn't feel like it is. Having been here for 30 years now, the big change taking place is pretty noticeable. What I observe is that many Californians migrating to Arizona today ARE well “educated” and skilled, or they are migrating for the purpose of seeking educational opportunities at ASU specifically. This includes aspirations for both undergrad and graduate level degrees. Most of these migrants seem to be very far left leaning in their political views. You know, Marxists, tribalists, BLM, anything anti-capitalism or “male patriarchy”, the social justice warrior types. The ones that have not yet attended a university will likely come out the other end with similar views. Regardless, the irony is that if Arizona turns 'purple' or 'blue' because of this migration, and let's call it what it is, it is an exodus from Democrat controlled states, then Arizona will end up like her sister states on the west coast. That is, Arizona will be broke, rundown, polluted, mismanaged, a creator of homelessness, and bound and gagged by internal bureaucracies. These west coast states are looking more Babylonian, and in large part the process has been accelerated by unnecessary extreme COVID policies. Where will all of us migrate too once the political transformations that occurred on the west coast also occurs here, thus drifting policy in Arizona to the left? Where will we go? The deep red south? Last time I checked the NYtimes a few weeks ago unemployment there was relatively low.

[AzRebel]

Publius, in the nineties I went to a friends block party in way north Phoenix. Out of 25 homes, one held an Arizonan, the other 24 were recently arrived Californicators. Their politics were mixed.

Currently, in rural AZ, Prescott, Kingman, Payson, Show Low, Camp Verde, Heber,etc. the Californicators coming in are retiree, law enforcement, very, very, very conservative Trump worshipers. They are bleeding California dry with their retirement plans, they just no longer live there.

You need to get out and look around past the view out your front window.

Side note: There won't be a civil war between the states. To say so is dangerous and uncalled for. If you look at the election maps, the divide is between RURAL and BIG CITY. I don't see Phoenix attacking Wickenburg, no more than I see Ajo attacking Tucson.

[Publius]

AzRebel, that is fair to say. I haven't been to Prescott or some of those other places in quiet some time and I do hear that there are a lot of right leaning Californian retiree's heading to those spots.
Furthermore, it is probably unfair of me to lump Oregon and Washington in with California since the challenges in these states really can't be compared apples to apples. I think many would agree that California is the one with the more apparent problems.
As for Arizona, migration is not a new thing. Jon is great because he points out the most obvious flaws with Arizona, namely the lack of a diverse and lasting economy. We still have a ways to go there, though I am proud that Arizona has expanded and improved in the last few years without losing its identity. I shouldn't fail to mention that we keep losing good architecture despite advances made.
As we try to steer Arizona in a better direction, I know that myself and others would like to see a lot of its charm remain the same, specifically in the greater Phoenix area. Does Arizona really need to follow the course laid out in, say Seattle, or Portland? Furthermore, does this require the implementation of policies popular with the Democrat party? I'm not as convinced as Jon. Whether Republican or Democrat controlled, technology has demonstrated during this pandemic that we may not need centralized cities like we thought. For example, the Zoom class can work from anywhere now. I guess time will tell if these changes are permanent or temporary.
As for your side note on civil war, generally I agree with you but that expands the scope of the discussion to far for me today.

[Cal Lash]

Pubilus???
Hmm your older than Moses?
You founded the first Roman Empire?
What happened?
Its amazing that truckers hide behind Handles?
"Where will we (??)go."
Austria might work for some.
Arizona is working on having 8 million humans.
Projections indicate that by 2050 the planet will be closing in on 10 billion.
Requiring a 70 percent increase in food production.
Arizona has not improved in the last 25 years. Its just got kooker.
It was as an ignorant king that sacked the last of the Babylonians.
Welcome to 2016/2020 Amerika.

[Cal Lash]

OPPS that 80 year old typing inversion
its Publius not Pubilus

[IA_Ed]

Publius, what role does climate change have in your view of AZ? What about water supply?