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November 07, 2016


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The election is this close because you have many people who have NO interest in working with the other side--and actually believe they can do it all on their own, and should be allowed to.

They forget the axiom that when you "point your finger" at someone, you have four fingers pointing back at you.

It's a sad fact that, were Reagan on the ballot, he couldn't be elected dogcatcher.

Demonization only shows that those declaring others to be "demons" must be familiar with the "demon." Otherwise, how do they know what a "demon" is?

If we don't learn to work together, we will all sink together.

Question for Rogue.

You wrote, "the rising power of the John Birchers, LDS, and new right. " while describing the dynamics of the 1986 election.

Are you suggesting the LDS wasn't politically active until the 1980's?

Long, but fast moving line at my polling place this morning. So many Latinos out there actually voting! I'm encouraged that all the hard work the ADP (AZ Democratic Party) did along with voter outreach organizations will change Arizona's course. Goodbye Arpaio!

When one looks at the past eight years, it seems there is much more unshakable defiance and obstructionism coming from the Republicans than the Democrats.

The rhetoric of Trump underscores the volcanic anger--and absolute detesting of the Democrats--of his core supporters. I do believe at least part of this warlike posture is that the far-right DOES believe God is on their side. One must include the Moral Majority and Evangelicals in any calculus of both the modern Republican party's power and the far-right's aggressive intransigence toward working across the aisle.

This absolute opposition toward abortions of any kind, expansion of voting rights, liberal Supreme Court Justices ("It's our court," Ted Cruz.), immigration reform, and trimming military spending is fuelled by a form of religious zealotry. This extremism is very similar to radical Islam. Religious overtones permeate all of the above issues and many more because these Bible bullies DO believe that their religion is facing an existential threat from both liberals and Moslems.
They also believe this country faces a similar crisis because, to them, THEIR religion is meant to guide America.

That this country was founded on the separation of church and state means nothing to them.


I'm suggesting that the LDS was not so closely connected to one party. The support for Mecham was inevitable because he was a Saint himself.

But into my early adulthood, most of the Mormons I knew were Democrats. And not only "Pintos," either. The most prominent examples were Stewart and Mo Udall, both vigorous liberals. The LDS was not part of a religious coalition in American politics then; far from it, considering the church's fraught and complex history in the 19th century.

This (before 1980) was before the culture wars, of course. But many older Arizona Mormons when I was young were defined by their commitment to building a better state, public education, the arts, public service, and Arizona getting more than its fair share of federal dollars.

Voting is important. So why the hell do so many people make it so hard? From the ThinkProgress piece about lines in AZ today;

“If you can’t afford to stand in a long line, if you can’t afford daycare, that’s basically a poll tax. It’s just not fair.”

We offer mail in voting. Holy cow, how much further we need to go for some people? What if they don't own a pen at home? Is that a poll tax? We've got serious voter supression concerns and I don't think people acting like stubborn children claiming every mistake and hold up is a conspiracy against them help the big picture of identifying the real problems and addressing them.

Sorry to go off, I just don't get it. Voting is a civic duty and we knew there were issues with polling sites. Why don't people utilize the tools given to them in order to make the process easier?

Full article:

Arizona election voting places.
Will the real Purcell stand up? Is Purcell the person she "appears" to be. Few inquiries were made of Purcell in the past when Republicans were seldom challenged.
Is there a Purcell history not evident. Where are the real "reporters"? Reporters that dig deep. Reporters that dig for facts not gottcha questions. Arizona has lost its real reporters as it has lost its political way since 1976. The great ASU Cronkite journalism school appears to turn out fresh beautiful faces, cloaked in fashionable attire. Faces that speak very clearly as they read from the teleprompter. Not a speck of dirt or sweat stained shirts anywhere.

What's next?

Thank you for the very fair assessment of Herbert Hoover, RC. Love your nuanced knowledge of history.

I recently received the new Gammage book as well as your Phoenix book for my birthday (they both had been on my wishlist for some time) and look forward to reading them both and will let you know my thoughts.

I dropped off my and my wife's ballots today and there was no line at all. Looking forward to watching the election unfold on television from here on out.

I pray that this election will work out for the best for all of us, whatever way that may be in God's plan, and that you all have a lovely evening.

I am live tweeting the election @jontalton

Cool, reading through your tweets now, some nice curation from what I am seeing.

What news network do you watch tonight? I am watching CBS News since they have quite a team with Schieffer, Dickerson, Garrett, etc., all journalists I am very familiar with.

Also, FOX had Judge Judy on at 430 and if that isn't a travesty I don't know what is...sheesh.

Local news (Ch. 5) showing 2.5-3 hour lines currently at a polling place at 51st Ave and Osborn as poll closing time approaches. That's a stark contrast to the total lack of lines at my polling place. I'd love to see a demographic breakdown of who votes early/by mail versus voting in person voting. Are polling places apportioned equally but certain demographic groups more likely not to vote early/by mail? Or what explains how lines are hours long in some places and not long at all in other places.

Granted, we have also seen lengthy, lengthy lines in dark blue states like New York so it's hard sometimes to separate what's voter suppression and what's incompetent election organizing, but the contrast in wait times is stark in Maricopa County.

Arpaio losing and Clinton/Trump inna tight race in AZ. It doesn't look good for Clinton nationwide.

Penzone is the new sheriff in Maricopa County! Paul Babeu is losing District 1 to a Democrat.

Prop 206 also a win (minimum wage increase). Good riddance to Sheriff Joe.

Trump appoints Joe as head of Homeland Security.

This will all make for very interesting reading tomorrow.

Cal, my goodness, I hadn't even thought about the possibility of Sherriff Joe in the Trump Admin...but clearly anything is possible.

I just truly don't understand some things. Tonight is the death of the traditional way we've thought that people chose the President. Traditional media? Debates? Gaffes? Demographic trends? Ground games / get out the vote organizations? Polls?

None of it mattered, and a lot of it was flat-out wrong. I guess the Brexit vote was prescient -- certain types of voters can't be polled accurately, at least not the way that people know how to do polling in 2016.

The old saying holds true:

Sometimes you have to hit rock bottom.

And we will, very soon.

Looks like we are burning down the house.

This election is the Black Swan event of modern American history. Nothing has ever come close to this epic failure in American politics. We will spend years trying to figure out what happened to a supposedly mature democracy. If we hit rock bottom without completely crashing this tenuous experiment in self-government, we'll be very fortunate.

Democracy itself only works if we honor the tremendous responsibility it imposes on us. We necessarily support the precepts like majority rule and election outcomes. I will not pretend to ever respect Donald Trump or the millions of low-information citizens who thoughtlessly voted for him. But that in itself is meaningless. We are free to scuttle this last great hope of mankind if we so choose. We might have made that choice tonight. Only time will tell.

Our evolutionary history will illuminate the hysteria and anxiety of tribal consciousness. Civilization itself has only been lately arrived at in the past several centuries. Given America's crucial role now (some might even call it the linchpin of global civilization), the election of an erratic ignoramus as our leader suggests our institutions have not yet evolved to the point that we can confidently navigate the relentless churn of innovation and upheaval. That's tonight's lesson. A huckster/demagogue exposed the terror in the hearts of frightened people who resent the complexity of modern civilization. We will soon learn that complexity is the least of our problems.

Trump dumps his Trumpkin supporters, delegates policy and 100% implementation of Ryan Plan to the House, and starts a White House version of The Apprentice. The New Order.

No suprises here and I'm willing to bet Ruben wasn't suprised.
Change for changes sake is stupid but thats what the Democrats went tone deaf on. Of course, race and gender were also a factor.
Trump gives the White Boys Oyxgen for few more years. Will the Democrats be able to rebuild? Will the Gadfly return?

FRANKLIN, Trump as I posted weeks ago will find places for Arpaio and Brewer. And if you think Penzone is just going to Waltz into MCSO and make everything OK. Think again. He is going to walk into a buzz saw mined with political IED's. I have seen this deal before. And wait until Trump finds a way pick a new US attorney and a new Agent in Charge of the US Marshalls office. You know of course that the website to migrate to Canada crashed. What do you predict now for the Hispanics that turned Joe out. I dont see much improvement in the next 5 years. If U need proof just review the Arizona election results. There were a few upsets but very few. And don't plan on APS giving U a rate cut or showing up to give U a free Solar installation.
Enough I have to go to work in a few hours.

the leviathan smiles

I hold the DNC responsible for this shit storm. Their arrogant rigging of the nomination process with super delegates and all the bs tricks by the likes of DWS turned off the energized younger voters who packed the caucus's I attended. They wanted change and had a washed up shifty insider crammed down their throats. These could have been the base for rebuilding corp D. Good luck getting them back.

Congratulations ross. Your de facto candidate Trump won. Your virginity is still intact, that is, until a Republican President, Republican Senate and Republican House have their way with you time after time for the next four years. But at least you Bernie Bros didn't vote for evil Hillary, right. Silly child.

We could've had a president Sanders today, but know-it-alls like Soleri poo-poohed everyone else's opinion, and assured us all that ONLY Hillary Clinton could win the general election. Mr. Talton bought his whole tiresome shtick,and jumped right on board. You two pretty much self-sorted your way to complete obliviousness, and you dragged the rest of us down with you. Thanks a lot. Now we have the worst disaster in American history to deal with, maybe even the collapse of the Republic. The next time I tell you an idea is bad (Rolling out the Goddamned Clintons in 2016 was as bad as it gets), and I tell you why, maybe you should listen.

Well, well, well. The Bernie Bros know who's to blame, and it's not them. It's everyone who wouldn't knuckle under to their regime of purity and sanctimony. Tell you what, Pat: if you think this blog determined the outcome, you are even more petty and asinine than your narcissistic politics.

No one can prove or disprove a counterfactual, but we should be clear about one thing: Bernie Bros were objectively pro-Trump through this nightmare of a campaign. They established the emotional blackmail and scandal-mongering necessary for a Trump victory. When you impugn America's public servants as whores and sellouts, don't be surprised when the entire edifice takes on the lurid coloration of a bordello. You loved sticking it to the mainstream more than you hated fascism. This election was just more payback from America's chronic crybabies for whom good enough was just another variation on cosmic evil.

We will spend the rest of American history litigating this catastrophe, but if you want to blame the liberal tradition, for which Rogue and I have been proud defenders, have at it. I for one welcome your hatred. Yeah, you get to gloat because the real object of your hatred - American democracy in all its muted glory - suffered what might prove to be a mortal body blow. But let's be clear about one thing: if you voted for Donald Trump, Gary Johnson or Jill Stein, or if you didn't vote at all, you are all still contemptible vermin. You were confronted with a stark moral choice and you flunked that simple test. You voted instead for your vanity and moral preening. This is how democracies fail. If you can't see the difference between a decent political actor like Hillary Clinton and an utterly immoral monster like Donald Trump, you are - quite simply - beyond the reach of ordinary human shame.

I'm with Pat. No lashing out, no name calling, simply this: you did yourselves and your readers (of which I no longer am one since the primaries) a disservice in your support of the Clintons. Mr. Talton, Soleri.

The question is this, is it not now time for self evaluation and introspection? Or will the finger pointing continue?

That question is not for me, I've already weighed you and found you wanting. But what will you do for you?


Kevin, I'll do what I continue to do: stand up for reality. The idea that Bernie would have beaten Trump is just you being stupid. You and Pat have no idea how Bernie would have done. Instead, you helped Trump win by furthering right-wing disinformation about Clinton.

Hillary is not a great political talent by any means. But her liberal bona fides are light years ahead of Bernie's. She was in the trenches when sanctimonious lefties were still in diapers. She's been around a long time and made a lot of enemies - all on the right with able assists from you lefty narcissists.

The one thing the asshole left accomplished this season is yet one more example why you can't trust them with democracy. Given the stark choice in this election, they decided their "feelings" were more important than objective reality. We lived through this nightmare in 2000 when their team helped elect George W Bush. Now, they've given us Donald Trump.

To all you Bernie or Busters: FUCK YOU.

Cal Lash-

My first question is, how does Penzone address Tent City? I mean, the lawsuit nonsense aside, I understand (possibly incorrectly) that his supporters want Tent City gone. So is he going to push to release a portion of his population or ask for funds to build new permanent facilities?

I think it's great he won -- anyone who costs taxpayers as much in b.s. legal fees as Arpaio deserves to lose -- but he's got a host of issues that need to be addressed and, of course, not a state government that is interested in really seeing him succeed.

Our Hitler moment. The question now is, how will we respond?

A blog before, Soleri wrote:

I'm going to write my post-mortem on the eve instead of the aftermath of Trump's definitive loss.

Is he EVER correct?

Here's a lesson just in case anyone actually wants to learn anything. In a couple of postings, Rogue and Soleri kind of defined this blog as a progressive blog with some outliers, and I guess that's accurate.

Now, you guys can keep those blinders on and continue to be shocked out just how Republican-ish this country is (President, Senate, House, Governors, State Attorney Generals, State houses, etc.).

Or you can kind of get out there and better understand that amazingly,it's a big, diverse country that doesn't necessarily share your narrow views.

Soleri also wrote in a previous blog that he was having trouble sleeping given just the possibility of a Trump presidency.

Sweet dreams, jackass.

"To all you Bernie or Busters: FUCK YOU." - Soleri

The veil is lifted and exactly what I meant by found wanting.

INPHX, sieg heil, asshole.

Ex Phx Planner, I have no idea what your cryptogram is supposed to mean, but if you didn't vote for Hillary, you voted for Trump. Don't blame me for your vote.

Again, with the vapid Nazi references.

When you got nothing, fall back on racism, fascism, Nazi-ism, misogyny, and the litany of other childish accusations.

Cause that's working out pretty well.

I guess this means you're just going to keep the blinders on?

I'm stunned.

Agree with soleri.


You are exactly the reason we have Trump as the Pres. elect. You consider yourself a genius, above reproach and infallible. You are just like the DLC and DNC. In short you appreciate yourself over much. Maybe the Clinton Foundation is hiring genius's.

Have a nice day!

To clarify, the country just elected a racist mad man and we are in danger.

I'm holding back my "I told you so's" because further dividing the left will send us deeper into the abyss.

My question is how do we move forward? What can we learn from history on what to do next? And I'm not exaggerating with the Hitler comparison

As I've wrote multiple times on this blog, I supported Sanders but voted for Clinton because it would be dangerous and irresponsible to do anything else. Not that danger is here and smart people need to figure out what to do next.

ross, why not go fellate Trump while you're at it. We live in a democracy. Hillary beat Bernie. Get the fuck over it and yourself.

Soldering is right on the money. It's hard for you to face the mirror, but it's undeniable.

Soleri not Soldering.

In 2 years we might have the opportunity to start fixing Trump's mess. I'm not holding my breath but his failed policies might inspire midterm turnout. 4 years might be too long to recover from. It will be like running an engine without motoroil.

INPHX, you are utterly vile. Remember when you were going to vote for catatonic Ben Carson? Or that failed CEO, Carly Fiorina? Then you were playing footsie with Bernie or Busters? Like most right-wing trolls, you play a double game in forums like this, forming fake alliances with your ideological opposites to get exactly what you never had the courage to admit: you supported a racist for president whose campaign was founded on an explicitly racist meme: birtherism. Which you called "legitimate".

I'm on record here saying some really cautionary things about democracy. We can vote to end this experiment if we so choose, and with Donald Trump, we might well have done that. Electing someone with a fascist sensibility should have sent shock waves through the electorate. Instead, people behaved as if it were refreshing that a pathological liar and con artist was somehow channeling "real America".

You have trolled this forum for one reason: to help a movement based on nebulous racial and cultural resentments gain power. Who else did that kind of thing? Hitler. I know Trump is not quite so demonic, but he still represents an extraordinary danger. If you're too uneducated to know this danger, you will likely vote for the person who somehow validates your anger. I'm telling you (and all you Bernie a-holes) that you people do not love America, its principles, or its people. You love your tribe. That's it.

Ex Phx Planner, thanks for the clarification.

I have no plan. The next four years will by devastating and perhaps beyond repair. This was probably the most pivotal election in our lifetimes, and the bad guys won. Kiss goodbye effective action on climate change. Wave farewell to a more liberal Supreme Court. Say hello to huge tax cuts for the wealthy. And probably advise your friends looking for affordable health care that they might want to immigrate to Canada.

We did this to ourselves. Not just the uneducated in the heartland, but all of us by refusing to understand exactly what was at stake here. Now we're a huge hole.

We will have to wait and see what happens, but given the necromancy on the right, and false equivalency in the center, there is no guarantee that we can come back. Too many people have swallowed too many lies. National suicide is no longer just a rhetorical thrust. It's an actual possibility.

Slimy Soleri, you've been Trumped.

From what I've gleaned of Trump's economic plan, we can expect another recession after 2017. Start saving your money now, especially if you're employ is that of a vulnerable industry: retail, real estate, small businesses and new business formation.

The scariest outcome may be recession-induced job and income losses that can have lasting consequences on individuals and families. The rise of poverty levels and falling income will occur as a result of the recession and will have lasting consequences for kids. This will impose long-lasting costs on the economy.

Soleri writes:

ross, why not go fellate Trump while you're at it. We live in a democracy. Hillary beat Bernie. Get the fuck over it and yourself.

I reply:

Soleri, why not go kiss Hillary while you're at it. We live in a democracy. Trump beat Hillary. Get the heck over it and yourself.

I will try to get a column up later this afternoon.

Recession not until after 2017 may be overly optimistic. The Fed starts raising interest rates this December as the Republican investor camp has been demanding almost throughout the Obama presidency.Then there is the Trump unpredictability factor which should cause most sensible large employers to pause both in hiring and capital investment.


I find this interesting. The conventional GOP deregulation agenda typically leads to a bubble first. I'd be surprised to see everything tank so quickly. Yeah, you'll probably see Trump slay (or try to, anyways) some of DC's golden calves but Congress will only allow him to do so much.

The big advantage we have over Brexit is that our trade deals are still in place until Trump negotiates better ones and gets Congress to sign off them (read: ain't gonna happen). Of course, we will have no meaningful change on many stagnant issues (middle class tax reform, climate change, campaign finance, etc) but I don't honestly see Trump doing much outside of the ordinary GOP playbook.

The Fed might actually opt to keep rates low due to impending revenue losses.

We had to pick the open bigot?? It doesn't matter if Arpaio is out of office--the ethnic cleansing is going to get worse. And we will soon have millions of American citizens choosing between their families and their nation. Excuse me, millions of non-white citizens. White voters already chose their families over the nation.

At least the post-racial era is done.

I tend to think the mass deportation was part of Trumps "Art of The Deal" to push the other Rs out of the primary. Trump won't bother with that, too much downside. And I'm sure he will deny ever saying he would. His tax cuts and possible spending bills will fire up inflation, along with his possible tariffs. Hard to say what he will actually do. The market seemed to shrug it off quickly enough.

At least Putin is happy. "Populist Billionaire" LOL. I wish George Carlin was alive to see this.

Rogue Columnist made an interesting statement in the previous column...

Maybe that changed after the banksters, but I doubt it on a scale enough to really win. The Tea Party was white supremacist and against Obamacare. Its dander up about Wall Street was decidedly secondary, and they keep electing the party that does the bidding of big business without any question. And that's the GOP.

One of the main themes, as posited in the election coverage, was one of the middle class being both ignored by Washington and being economically squeezed. Trump campaigned on getting good paying jobs "back."

Point 1: Our form of capitalism rewards "ambition" and greed. If the job can be done cheaper (overseas), our government encourages it. No trade barriers. Does Trump really have a plan to get the high pay back? Because if he doesn't the middle class rage over being "ignored" will only increase.

Point 2: If big business is supported more by the Republicans than Democrats, electing the Republicans would only seem to be enabling the big business M.O. of "offshoring" jobs. If the jobs ever come back, they come back paying much less. It sounds like a recipe for increased "worker rage" at the establishment--an establishment they helped to keep going.

You do all realize that more people voted for Clinton, don't you?

Now, if this were a democracy that might mean something...

And neither candidate has the support of a majority of American voters.

If Clinton gets the majority of votes, the popular vote, then it's safe to say she had the support of the majority of American voters. If you mean neither has over 50% of the popular vote then your statement holds true.

Very few of the Trump supporters seem to realize that the capitalist system they adore is one of the reasons they're in the economic pickle that makes them angry.

Our "winner take (just about) all" form of capitalism rewards ambition, avarice, and greed. It is quite indifferent and unconcerned with "social justice." Wealth is the do-all and end-all. It is this all-consuming desire for profits that has created and helped ferment the economic "rage" against Washington.

We in America have promoted and endorsed a profit motive without conscience. If there were a "conscience" aspect in our capitalism, maybe some of those high-paying jobs wouldn't have "migrated,"
because there might have been some soul-searching in the consideration process. People--and the community's welfare--might have had a place at the table.

But the profit motive was so strong, conscience never had a chance.

We're reaping that "whirlwind" in blue collar resentment.

On a local note, Arizona is still too close to call for Trump. Pretty interesting considering, if you told me last week that Trump was going to win the race I'd have said he'd have killed Hillary in AZ then.

Also, with under 2 million votes cast, AZ is also looking at the lowest turnout in years. I look forward to the post-race analysis on who stayed home, why, and if the concerns about adequate polling sites did end up playing a roll.

Carlin and Janet Reno got lucky.
Later on whiteness and around the campfires, now got work to do.

The county had 644 polling sites compared to only 60 in March. However, that wasn't mentioned by the media any time prior to the election. Statewide there were still 212 less polling sites compared to 2012. Bottom-line is that too many people decided to stay at home or didn't bother to mail in their ballot.

Haha, soleri lost it.

Fuck you too, sir.


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