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December 03, 2014


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Talking Stick is the first Chapter in a Charles Bowden book, Killing the Hidden Waters.
Bowden details the lives and water use practices of the O'odham and Pima Indian cultures who have traditionally lived in the Sonoran Desert and whose lives have been centered on their relationship—mythically, spiritually, materially, agriculturally—with the reality of scarce groundwater. Bowden explains, "Water is energy, and in arid lands it rearranges humans and human ways and human appetites around its flow." Europeans brought the idea of "mining" the ice-age aquifers through wells and windmills and living beyond their means in a constant state of "water debt." Bowden is clear that it is our cultural insistence on living as if our debts will never come due that has created the timebomb of water issues—not weather patterns, ill-conceived dams or low-flow toilets.

Side-note: new comments and replies in the previous thread, including an analysis of Obama's foreign policy toward Syria and the views of his Republican (and other) detractors. (Similar analyses of Obama vis a vis Iraq and Afghanistan, were posted there yesterday.)


Re the current thread: a VERY funny commentary; but I'm not sure I see the leap from Talking Stick Arena to lack of big city creds for a phenomenon which you point out is near universal. Here's your strongest argument:

"What most struck me was that the arena in the downtown of the nation's sixth most-populous city, with three home teams, apparently couldn't attract a more prominent sponsor."

First note that this isn't without precedence in metro Phoenix:

"The GRIC forged a naming rights deal earlier this year with the Arizona Coyotes for what was Jobing.com Arena. The Glendale coliseum is now called the Gila River Arena, promoting the tribe's casinos, hotels and other ventures. A Talking Stick Arena would be a logical step in the competitive Native American casino marketplace."


To determine why it's called Talking Stick and not Go Daddy, Petsmart, or any of the other companies and traditional Suns sponsors listed in the article, you have to ask what the process is for selecting a sponsor.

My understanding is that the criterion isn't corporate standing but the size of corporate bidding. Talking Stick is a casino-resort adjacent to the arena. Apparently these casinos have deep pockets and consider large bids not only to be good advertising but also good politics in an era of anti-casino (or casino favoritism posing as anti-casino) legislation in Arizona and Phoenix.

Sad but predictable that American Indians would so wholly adopt the European value system.
So the scalping continues as no one wins except the Casinos. At 74 I continue to be amazed at the american desire for "a deal, a free cup of coffee, Black Friday" and the thought that somehow they will pick the winning lottery ticket or beat the spinning wheel. If one reads of the Talking Stick People you will note that such activity and thought is absurd.

It is all about the lowest common denominator: cash.

Although I have been critical of Jon's "attitude" toward Phoenix, I agree with much of what he has written here. I probably have an "attitude" about sports that eclipses any that Jon has about Phoenix. Don't get me wrong--I think that sports has an important role to play and provides entertainment for many people. I have a grand-nephew who is a rising basketball star and I couldn't be prouder of him!

However, the ideal purchasers of the naming rights for any facility should be the teams--and more especially the players--themselves. E.G. "Arizona Cardinals Stadium", "Phoenix Suns Arena." Why should taxpayers at large be underwriting a bunch of well-paid players--many of whom are--our could be--millionaires? Geez! The liberals rant on and on about the Koch Brothers, et al, but I don't recall being taxed to pay for the facilities that house the Koch Brothers' enterprises. Where's the outrage?

Sports, as a hobby, has been way over-hyped and overemphasized. For my money, "News, Weather, and Historical Preservation"; "News, Weather, and Fine Arts"; or "News, Weather, and [a rotating area of interest that could include sports]" would be way more interesting. Yes, I am uncoordinated, have lousy vision, hated P.E., and was always "the last one picked" for a team and I'm sure it shows. But that admission doesn't make it any less of an outrage that the first chairs of each of the sections in the Phoenix Symphony--or likely ANY symphony orchestra for that matter--are paid a fraction of what leading sports figures are paid.

Study after study has shown that including an emphasis on music and other arts in the schools helps students perform better in all areas--including math and science. Despite my dislike of them, physical education programs are important, too, of course.

Just as we need more balance in our infrastructure (people are driving less but we still spend the bulk of transportation funds on streets and highways), we need more of a balance in our emphasis of leisure time pursuits. True, Phoenix taxpayers paid for Symphony Hall, too--and probably paid to ruin its exterior by hiding it inside the expanded convention center--but at a fraction of the cost of a sports facility.

I'm conservative, but I think our national obsession with sports--sort of like the Romans' obsession with circuses and gladiators--says as much about America's decline as anything. And money seems to be creeping further and further down the ladder--sooner or later even high school stars may be paid. If we're going to have so much sports, at least it should be pure, healthy competition as opposed to something that--to me at least--often looks as choreographed as "professional" wrestling.

This better not be a precursor to a move to the rez for the arena. I don't think Sarver is that blind that he doesn't notice the failure of the west valley stadiums.
Speaking of which, once the Arizona hockey team moves, move the Phoenix Suns in, tear down the purple palace and build anew on its ashes.
The Talking Stick Court at Phoenix Arena.

Societies values are screwed up when a lousy cornerback gets paid 8 mil/yr and a teacher gets 35-40K. Yes as a retired teacher (PE no less) I am biased.

For a time, the Denver Post rebelliously continued to use the more evocative name Mile High Stadium instead of some corporate tag. Then they changed their style guide and went with the stupid official name. Think the San Francisco Chronicle rolled over immediately for whatever name replaced Candlestick Park.

the advent of professional sports ushered in felonious mayham. I have put people in prison for crimes committed regularly in what is now called professional sports. And in case U haven't noticed those talented great athletic young people at the end of the game don't really control the final score. Your Bookmaker has the final call.

Koreyel and WKG left you a response on Obamas troubles

Koreyel, suggest you read the Front Pages, Now We Face 2016.


The Social cleansing wars in Mexico are called Social Limpizea and occur by physically murdering the poor and the complainers. (Read Students) The Social cleansing war of "undesirables"in the US is accomplished by purchasing the ballot box. By denying people health care and food.
Arizona and Mississippi lead the nation in how to murder poor people by economic strangulation. US corporations and ruling wealthy class remind me of Edward Abbeys statement.
" will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."
And Koreyel is right I am a crazy old pessimistic man. So I close with an Amen bro.

Sports is entertainment. No more, no less. When people stop watching or buying, or coming, salaries or profits will fall.

Taxpayers should not fund sports facilities, or operas, or any of the other arts absent clear, concise, and limited in term ballot measures. All that does is create pricing distortions from top to bottom. There's already too much "free riding".

The naming rights issue is as simple as supply and demand. Rational people making rational business decisions. If someone wrote a big enough check, somewhere you'd see "Bernie Madoff Arena"

I don't necessarily understand how the sponsors get bang for their buck, but then again, I'm not the head of promotion for a firm. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest they know what they're doing.

And as long as we're talking about the Tribes, nice work for all you government first guys on the Indian Trust fund scandal. Makes Obamacare look like a winner.

Don't think anyone here has defended the US government vis-à-vis the Indian Trust Fund. The whole point of the US government was to disinherit, terrorize, and marginalize the native tribes (just as their white male voters directed them). The law does not protect those whom is meant to oppress.


I'm a white voter but I must have missed the boxes next to

a)Disinherit, terrorize, and marginalize the tribes

b)Put an organization together to monitor Indian assets that cannot reconcile a freakin' checking account.

Got copies of those lying around anywhere?

You only have to read history or talk to a tribal member. Monitor was not the intent.

From Ian Welsh:


I think that the naming rights go to the owner of the venue, usually a city, county or “authority” of some sort. I don’t think the teams see any of this money (directly). I have no idea of the ownership of the Sun’s venue – the city of Phoenix?

Actually, even at “Talking Stick Resort Arena” is going to be pretty cool. It’s going to take about 10 minutes for this to become the “The Stick” as in: (radio ad) “one night only Katie Perry at The Stick” or (ten o’clock news) “live from “The Stick” here is ……)

I wouldn’t have too much heartache over who ponied up for the naming rights. For example in Atlanta the new “basketball” arena (it’s used for a lot of different things) is not Coke, Home Depot, CNN, Chick Filet, Cisco Services, Sun Trust, Southern Company, UPS or Delta Arena – it’s Phillips Arena (I’m assuming this is the Dutch electronics company).
It’s rare for a big established corporation to get into a bidding war for naming rights. There’s always the exception. For example why AT&T paid for naming rights to the Cowboy’s stadium is mystifying. No matter what the sign on the building says, it’s still “Jerry World.”

Oops. I left off the enumeration of big Atlanta corporations ICE – the International Commodities Exchange. One of the biggest company’s you’ve never heard of. It recently bought the New York Stock Exchange.

Wrigley Field didn’t avoid the naming-rights plague, it presaged it. Stick of gum, anyone?

FOOTBALL Must be "cool" to know your kids may grow up to be concussion retards and kill themselves or die from sports related violence.

Here's a time-lapsed video of Phoenix, or The Valley as it's titled here. The mountain preserve looks quite good! There's a bit of urban action on the light-rail route, and a nice picture of the basketball arena.



I know it probably dosen't mean much to this crowd, but I'd really like to see AU take Oregon tonight.

WGK did U mean U of A or ASU?
And whats your definition of "take"

It is U of A. And "take" means beat the sh** out of.

In my 23 years as a cop I never beat or shot anyone
but I did talk until they begged me to stop and promised to peacefully get in the back seat of the police car. Some referred to me as the Sociologist with a badge.

Oregon 51-7. Bummer

OOps. make that 51-13.

shit happens

INPHX, this is to remind you that when you vote for McCain (I'm not saying you did) you vote for mining interests. If you vote for mining interests you vote to "a)Disinherit, terrorize, and marginalize the tribes."
Read this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/03/ndaa-land-deals_n_6264362.html

And, I might add, that by sneaking this legislation into National Defense Authorization Act our legislators are flipping their middle finger to the majority of citizens in Arizona.

Looking forward to a thread on the police/Black victim issue (not necessarily Ferguson). I've got some observations about the statistics/arguments/distractions which conservatives keep trotting out.

Suzanne re “INPHX, this is to remind you that when you vote for McCain (I'm not saying you did) you vote for mining interests. If you vote for mining interests you vote to "a)Disinherit, terrorize, and marginalize the tribes."

I’m having a little trouble connecting the dots. Here are the facts as far as I could determine:
• The acreage involved was about 2400 acres or about 4 square miles ( a spec on the map by AZ standards.
• The land involved was Federal land.
• The mining company replaced with property someplace else (unspecified)
• Copper ore would be mined.
• It sounded like a long-wall type mine. This method is fairly benign as far as the surface is concerned. We do a lot of it around here (coal).
• The article made no mention about where the ore would be processed into copper.

I’m having difficulty linking this to “disinherit, terrorize and marginalize”.

Then “And, I might add, that by sneaking this legislation into National Defense Authorization Act our legislators are flipping their middle finger to the majority of citizens in Arizona.” Do the majority of Arizonians find mining inherently evil?

@Emil re “Looking forward to a thread on the police/Black victim issue (not necessarily Ferguson).” Me too.

WKG, The reason I feel like legislators are flipping the finger at we citizens is because for many years Arizona citizens have said NO! to this land exchange proposal at Oak Flat. Since 2005, 11 land exchange bills have been introduced and all have failed.

So, McCain now slides the initiative into a bill under the disguise of the National Defense Authorization Act..
Most of us care about this land and the WATER (rare in the desert) on it. We do not want the mining companies to own and destroy it. Yes, it feels like I am being marginalized and terrorized!

Re Suzanne your latest: I don’t know that Arizonians have ever voted on the swap. The votes were in Washington.

“most of us care about the land”. Yep we all do.

“and WATER”: fail to see how this is relevant to the proposal at all.

“mining companies to own and destroy it”: the mine is 7,000 feet underground. Aside for the shafts down to the mine, nothing is being destroyed. From the surface it would not be apparent that there is a mine at all.

“I am being marginalized and terrorized!” I can understand the marginalized part; but not the terrorized part. When people do things I don’t approve of, I feel many things; but terror is not one of them.

An aside: Rogue laments the lack of a real economy in Phoenix/Arizona. That means you need to produce something that people elsewhere will pay for. Mining is one of those few things that Arizona has a competitive advantage. Until recently I was not aware of the amount of basic industry that exists in Portland. If call-centers and tourism is an economic strategy – well good luck.

WKG;"Aside for the shafts down to the mine, nothing is being destroyed."
U been smoking that funny stuff again?
Those holes cause collapsing among a number of other environmental issues
"“I am being marginalized and terrorized!”
WKG I think you are confusing Terrorized with the word scared.
Terroized: http://www.manataka.org/page269.html
And as far as mining goes, screw that Iranian company that wants to mine a beautiful place just a few miles from where I am at.
Man should live on and with the land and not drill holes in it.
And while I am at it, drop into your small "LOCAL" bookseller and pickup a copy of the new issue of ADBUSTER.

WKG, I did not write with enough clarity. You are correct, the bills were introduced in Washington. However, we citizens here in Arizona protested the move, and, I thought, put enough pressure on gov. to end the argument.
What I want you to know is that this is a long-drawn-out dispute over public land and the water rights that go with it. The exchange is not fair and, mostly, it only benefits a few for a short time.

cal, I used the word terrorize because INPHX used the word terrorize, because McKinzie used the word terrorize and I think it is a good choice of words.

@Cal re “U been smoking that funny stuff again?” Nope. Beer my drug of choice. A little Irish whiskey every now and then is nice too. Smoked a little wacky-tabaccy in my younger days, but I found it to be silly.

Re “Those holes cause collapsing among a number of other environmental issues” Like I say, we do a lot of the long-wall mining around here. Aside from an occasional cracked house foundation, the effect at surface level is minimal – like a few inches. This is for coal mines, which I think (I really don’t know) are much shallower than 7000 feet. There is going to be the roads to truck the ore away from the mine.

RE “Man should live on and with the land and not drill holes in it.” I’m going to assume that the statement applies to water wells, oil wells, etc. Just a matter of curiosity, what alteration to the natural environment would you find acceptable? Before you answer, consider that the Indians were big time alterers of earth.

WKG, copper mines need water, lots of water.
According to Resolution Copper Mining (RCM), this mine will need as much as 20,000 acre feet of water per year.

WKG let me be clear, Alterations: NONE.
I am aware of Native American on top of the land items like intentional fire. But worse is employing fire fighters to fight forest and grass land fires. U can take your engineering mine technology and .Well let's just say I m opposed to all resorces mining and excavation including water. And before U ask me how I would survive, I would as that's what I do. I would walk to the bush and eat the berries and drink from once unpolluted streams. Last time I did that in the Grand Canyon I got Girardi from the cow shit that filtered down from the rim into the springs. Cows are illegal aliens for you drawers of lines in the sands.
From my phone. Later

What do Football, hockey and mining have in common?

@Cal and Suzanne: thanks for the argument (which is different than a fight), otherwise I’d have to pay more attention to an FSU-Georgia Tech game that I really can’t get into. BTW Roll Tide; which is hard for a Gator Guy to say.

@Cal. I knew the answer to the alteration question when I asked it. You’re a purist; very noble. Really ask yourself: “how long could I live without the bounty of an advanced economy?” I suspect, not long. Even if you could it would be a very Spartan existence. Just eking out an existence from one day to the next would be a full-time obsession.

@Suzanne: water usage is a tricky thing. I don’t know your lifestyle – but I’m going to assume you live in an apartment in Phoenix. How much water do you “use”? The easy answer is whatever to meter says when you get a water bill – assuming it’s not included in your rent. But really most of it is returned via the waste water system. The only part that is “lost” is via what you drink (which turns into sweat and the moistness of breath when you breath), the steam from cooking, maybe the steam in the bathroom when you take a shower. But most of it is “borrowed”. I suspect the mine is like this too.

So WKG, are you saying that it really does not matter what the citizens of Arizona understand to be detrimental to the state. If McCain wants to pass legislation for the mining industry, and they are patient enough to wait out the attention span of the public, then it's all good because sh-t ends up down stream anyway.
And, who really cares about what happened to the Natives, or the land or anything? What matters is that McCain needs to show that he is working for his financier, so that he can be comfy in his fifth (or sixth, who's counting) house and if the mine is built some money will trickle down to the peons in Superior for a few years.
This is not a good discussion.

Sticking it to the white guys. With a Talking stick.

WKG, you are a brilliant guy with one of them thar college educations. But me thinks that somewhere along the line you banged too many beer cans against your head when your team was losing, resulting in permanet severe brain concussion damage. I failed out of the University system first semester, something to do with graduating last in my High School class.
Spartan I know, I know why there are red and white corn cobs in the outhouse. I have lived off the land, no grocery stores. Besides stores didn’t carry possum or squirrel and still don’t. For 74 years I have lived on the ground obtaining a degree in STREET. My gut tells me you enjoy living in a world that perpetuates violence whether on the ground or on that big screen TV surrounded by empty beer cans.
I offer you
“The society whose modernisation has reached the stage of integrated spectacle
is characterised by the combined effect of five principal factors: incessant technological renewal, integration of state and economy, generalised secrecy, unanswerable lies, and eternal present . . .
— The Society of the Spectacle”
― Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle
“The reigning economic system is a vicious circle of isolation. Its technologies are based on isolation, and they contribute to that same isolation. From automobiles to television, the goods that the spectacular system chooses to produce also serve it as weapons for constantly reinforcing the conditions that engender “lonely crowds.”
― Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle
Regarding you previous note on Black violence and cops and your anticipation of a column. Let me suggest to you that all the Ivory tower think tanks in the world don’t have a clue about “on the ground human nature and on the ground policing”. Just the nature of your inquiry and anticipation gives rise to my opinion that you already have a skewed outlook on the subject.
I give you a start, about 40 years ago law enforcement started hiring “no life experience cowards.”
And its got really worse since 911 with the lack of background investigation into hires.
One of the comparisons I like is that in the Israeli military you start at the bottom and work your way up. For years I have advocated that all Federal Agents should spend a t least a year in a patrol car in a major city.

wkg in bham, the loss of freshwater used for intense environmental disruptions like mining is a negative externality of that economic activity. The most efficient mining techniques, e.g. bio-mining, "green-mining", cutting techniques, etc. still cause environmental degradation. That is not to say that all mining should be completely and immediately halted. Instead we need to consider the negative externalities carefully and invest/implement solutions. We develop alternatives and recycling methods with a negligible sense of urgency.

Moreover, while your statement regarding "borrowed" water is not completely false it is deceptive. Freshwater is currently considered a renewable natural resource. It can only be considered as such for short periods of time.

The only way freshwater would be truly renewable -or simply borrowed- is if the Hydrologic Cycle met demand around the world and replaced water in regions where it is most beneficial; e.g. rain/snow in the mountains. You probably just said to yourself: "Well, mountainous regions are basically specks on the earth's surface." This is true. Most land is not mountainous and the surface as a whole is mostly ocean. Once freshwater has moved from one state to another along the Hydrologic Cycle, previously recorded levels of potable water tend to decrease. A large amount of our freshwater has accumulated in the oceans. This is a simultaneous event occurring in more and more regions around the world with varying degrees of severity.

Yes, one way or another it is returned to the earth but much of it becomes contaminated or stored where it is not available in its former state; fresh/potable water. This will increase the cost of providing freshwater to the public.

The most resilient cities/states may be able to handle the increased cost efficiently as long as infrastructure is funded. Regions fortunate enough to benefit from climate change (more precipitation) will also be in better shape if they are not flooded or have adequate storage capacity. Vulnerable populations (a larger portion of the world, approx. 2/3) will be dealing with water scarcity. Water scarcity currently affects every continent. Lastly, population growth reduces the amount of available freshwater causing man-made shortages.

Welcome back PHXSUNFAN

As far as professional sports are concerned I do not see any sport as a primary contributing factor for any societal ill. I find the opposite to be true. Some notable social progress in American society can be partially attributed to sports. A few come to mind that had the most impact: racial integration, acceptance of female athletes (decreasing levels of institutionalized misogyny beginning with the Millennials), and scholarship that may not otherwise exist for many. I still find it quite unsettling when older individuals comment on female independence, athletes, or those in positions of power (heads of state, corporate officers/executives, or even non-traditional families) that break dated gender norms from the 1950’s.

I have played, and still do, a few organized sports with women. I’ve grown up in a generation that expects women to be our equal in all aspects of life. The same is true when it comes to sexual orientation and race. There are older men, and women, I know that do not appreciate this type of competition. This is true even if it would benefit them in terms of gaining a capable athlete on a team sport. It won’t be long until girls that have been raised with no limitations, void of rigid gender roles, and given proper instruction will remain on traditional all-boys teams beyond middle school and into elite local clubs for adults. I foresee this occurring even in the more physically demanding sports like soccer and baseball. More openly gay pro athletes will continue this progression.

The spirit of competition should be viewed as a positive aspect of our culture. Sports and human capital are intertwined and have been in nearly every civilization. I don’t mind paying some taxes for the necessary infrastructure and supporting a team with donations and as a season ticket holder. I do not see an issue so long as the taxes are not regressive and we require majority financial support from ownership.

Our cultural institutions and supporting infrastructure (which includes everything from academia, the arts, and sports) requires a community willing to invest in city-building for the future. What I am tired of funding is unmitigated sprawl that is truly destructive to society and the environment. I don’t want my taxes going toward building hundreds of roads to nowhere and costly infrastructure in virgin desert for a few people in Sprawlsville (a.k.a. North Phoenix and North Scottsdale).

Let me get back to what is most basic about sports: Sports teach you how to win honorably and lose with dignity. With the right coaching in place playing a sport is another tool that contributes to developing well-rounded individuals who contribute to the community they represent. The fact that your actions during competition have immediate consequences that impact your community also lends itself here. Real sports fans do not side with an athlete who cannot control his actions or fights on the field. Act like you’ve been there before and let your play on the field take care of the rest.

The rules of the game, especially football, are changing with safety and issues of morality as primary concerns. This requires athletes to gain a modicum of knowledge regarding human anatomy and physiology and to respect others.

I honestly believe that nearly every professional athlete that is a starter has no intention of hurting an opponent. In fact, you will see both teammates and opponents emotionally impacted by an injury. Headfirst tackles will become rarer and rugby tackling techniques will become the norm. The best teams and athletes want to face an opponent who is at their best. This means making sure people remain healthy and injury free. Players that have displayed violent tendencies should not get an automatic pardon. Even with Ray Rice’s wife at his side, he is going to have a difficult time finding a team that will sign him.

I am not naive and do understand that professional sports are highly profitable and that economic benefits are not always realized by the communities that support them. This is especially true when a facility is built outside of the central city or, as in the case of the Brooklyn Nets, ignores the fabric of the neighborhood. This is not unique to American sports. Many of the issues here have been long-term issues in Europe; Anfield in Liverpool comes to mind. Issues with owners and their misplaced sense of stewardship, or lack thereof, is the underlying issue.

I’ve have come to the conclusion that many people have an unbalanced regard for sports and the arts. It is almost as though some Americans were given an ultimatum that required liking one over the other and keeping these “worlds” separate. It is possible to appreciate aspects of both or at the very least, recognizing the level of skill and dedication involved to succeed in either “world”. I’ve probably written too much on this one issue, but I finally have some time off and I was able to get some reading done and find out what’s happening in the world.

@Suzanne re “So WKG, are you saying that it really does not matter what the citizens of Arizona understand to be detrimental to the state. “ I don’t know what the citizens of Arizona want. I know that you and Cal don’t want the mine. If the citizens don’t want any more mines, pass some legislation outlawing the things.

Re: “And, who really cares about what happened to the Natives, or the land or anything?” In a sense, we all do. Cal has made his position quite clear. If this were an open pit mine, I might feel differently about the mine.

Re: “This is not a good discussion.” Is it because I’m pushing you? I like a good argument. What’s the difference between and argument and a fight? An argument is about ideas. If I put a bad idea out there and it gets bashed, well it’s a bad idea or I presented it badly. Either way, I’ve learned something.

@Cal re: “My gut tells me you enjoy living in a world that perpetuates violence whether on the ground or on that big screen TV surrounded by empty beer cans.” Nope. I live in a place that Soleri would call “Mayberry”. Violent crime, or violence of any kind, is almost unheard of. My TV is an old CRT type with something like a 15 inch screen, converter box and an antenna. The beer empties are stacked by the front door for the next trip to the dumpster – can’t stand disorder.

Re “Regarding you previous note on Black violence and cops and your anticipation of a column.” Yep, I was (am); much more interesting than “talking stick”. I admit to having prejudices regarding issues of this type. But I will also admit to almost total ignorance on the specifics of the Ferguson events. I certainly haven’t been amassing a file to unload on you.

Re: ‘as weapons for constantly reinforcing the conditions that engender “lonely crowds.”
A true tragedy of our times. A good topic all by itself.

@Phnxsunsfan: For simplicity’s sake, I consider water only to be used when it is converted to vapor.

Sorry to be curt here. Too much stuff to address with any thoroughness.

WKG, you have not answered the most pertinent question. Why is McCain using the Armed Services Committee and the and the National Defense Authorization Act to give 2,400 acres of the Tonto National Forest in Arizona to a subsidiary of the Australian-English mining giant Rio Tinto?
Why, if it is so important to mine and everything is going to be so good for everyone, why not just give Rio Tinto a mining permit on public land? Why give the land away in a land swap?

Suzanne I think we need to find a way to send McCain and Rio Tinto into exile. And here is another reason to outlaw mining. Recently just down the road a few miles from the Rio Tinto mining operation.

Phxsunsfan: great stuff, and I agree with you on most and its always great to have your positive input and outlook. I just never personally had an interest in team sports and got away from pro sports in 64. However until about 1990 I did watch college track running and wrestling events. This narrow inking is probably what led me to choose between the fire department and the police department. I liked walking and riding in the community and acting and talking like the Mayberry town Marsahall.

WKG: thanks for making me look up the word "Purist." Yep you got that right. And the industrial revolution was the beginning of the end or was it the advent of agriculture.
"the quilting purist doesn't want to hear the words "sewing machine".

While we worry about the who is naming sports arenas and if you think we have police violence in the US and for those interested in the US and Mexican governments social cleansing of "undesirables" standing in the road of the worlds wealthy barons and large corporations in Mexico here is a good article.

As we focus on police killings. Is this insignificant.
Brown had just stole some Cigars prior to being killed and
Garner was selling illegal cigarettes just prior to being killed?
And the number one thing we are afraid of,
Being shot by a cop?

cal, the Jacobin article is very good.
phxSUNSfan, I enjoyed your thoughts as well.

@Suzanne re “WKG, you have not answered the most pertinent question. Why is McCain using the Armed Services Committee and the and the National Defense Authorization Act to give 2,400 acres of the Tonto National Forest in Arizona to a subsidiary of the Australian-English mining giant Rio Tinto?” Because he couldn’t get an honest vote passed. The Dem controlled senate opposed to mining – as are you.

@Cal re “Suzanne I think we need to find a way to send McCain and Rio Tinto into exile.” At least for the McCain part, please find a way ASAP. The guy’s an idiot.

@PHXSUNFAN – back to the water issues.

“Instead we need to consider the negative externalities carefully and invest/implement solutions. We develop alternatives and recycling methods with a negligible sense of urgency“. As long as water is cheap and plentiful, you can’t really expect too much effort put into reducing or optimizing your usage. But those days are long gone. Even here in the wet southeast water is a big issue in siting an industrial plant.

I missed a big “usage” of fresh water previously – the water that is dumped into the oceans and seas. I don’t know how many of millions of gallons of water that is “dumped” into the Gulf of Mexico every day by the Alabama River; and there are smaller rivers in Alabama that collectively dump just as much. Is this water wasted? Different people would see this in different ways. We’re in the unique position that we can use water abundantly, keep the aquifers full and still let a lot just run into the seas. But I don’t know how to ship our excess to you. Perhaps indirectly as food.

You raise an interesting point: “efficiently as long as infrastructure is funded.” A constant frustration of mine. I have seen the figures for the amount of water lost to leaks in the local distribution system and it is big – like more than 20%. I would hate to see what the numbers look like in the Northeast where even fixing a simple pot-hole seems to be undoable. We as a society have lost the ability to build things like reservoirs. I am only really familiar with two metros: Atlanta and Birmingham. Neither has built or expanded their water storage systems in at least 40 years. Water is the issue at hand – but I think it is indicative of a larger problem.

@All: RC frequently brings up the issue of Phoenix developing a real economy. You don’t have to turn back the clock too far to where the economy was based on mining, agriculture and the production of goods and services for local consumption. You’ve made it clear that the mining part is unwanted. I just can’t see agriculture having much of a future given the water situation. You don’t produce much of anything anymore. Any ideas?
An aside: I see a big future for agriculture here. And apparently the people in SE Alabama (where a lot of serious agriculture is done) agree. I see a lot of fields being cleaned up to put back into production.

An aside: See where La. Senate runoff went to GOP. I think this makes the Senate 54-46 GOP. Going to be an interesting two years coming up. Hope Obama keeps his wits about him.

WKG, you are stuck on the notion that we don't like mining. And it is clear that you are not willing to look at the underlying issues that oppose mining in this particular case.
First, Rio Tinto does not want to follow the rules that every other mining company wanting to use public lands must follow. So they have gone straight to the U.S. Congress for a special sweetheart land-exchange deal. A land exchange that benefits Rio Tinto tremendously but screws the US, Native Americans and the citizens of Arizona.
Second, one of the rules they do not want to follow is pointed out in phxSUNSfan's post; Yes, one way or another it is returned to the earth but much of it becomes contaminated or stored where it is not available in its former state; fresh/potable water. This will increase the cost of providing freshwater to the public. In other words, the process of copper mining inevitably contaminates fresh water that, in turn, passes extra costs down to the consumer that must pay to clean the water that mining pollutes.

Your response "Because he couldn’t get an honest vote passed." is true however naive and uninformed.

WKG, I prefer making New Mexico and Arizona a wilderness. We will send you about 4 million folks to help use your resources.


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