« Strong mayor | Main | Cadillac cowboys »

April 10, 2014


Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

As one oilman from east Texas said, "Think long, think wrong."

Living by the day, I'll be dead anyway?

I understand how hard it is to have an intelligent conversation in a crowded, noisy bar with drunks. We've all tried it but after a while, your voice gives out and your head starts to pound. You start to think it might be nice to go home and sleep. It's the same thing with denialists. First, you have to validate their sense of being victims because liberals are always laughing at them. I think, yes, we do that a lot. Instead of nodding our heads as they drool about Al Gore's weight problem, we look impatient. Then there's the side issue with alternative explanations you can't just wave off. Yes, sun spots are a menace and should be outlawed. But at some point, you understand you're not making headway so much as providing a forum for an idiot to talk about everything but the issue at hand. Something terrible is happening, we don't have much time to correct it, and we either trust science or a cabal of evil billionaires. What to do?

There is no strategy outside of paradoxical intention that can persuade idiots to pay close attention. You think, keep it simple! Appeal to his sense of humility and restraint. But arguments are infectious and there's an epidemic going on. They're as easy to understand as a drunk spraying you with saliva when you tell him he's not a scientist or even someone who qualifies as informed. So, you start to tailor your arguments a bit. Let's talk about that Malaysian airliner! What do you think happened? Maybe Al Gore was on board and it couldn't gain altitude! Ha!

You wonder if it might be more effective a strategy to pander to their felt sense that laymen know as much as scientists do (but liberals won't tell you that side of the story!). On the other hand, you've already given up too much terrain in this battle of inebriated wits. A little voice starts warning you to shut up but it sounds just like your best friend's when you're driving too fast. So, in the spirit of an evening going wrong you unleash a primal scream of invective. Instead of massaging the idiot's sense of dignity, you mock him. There it goes. Another potential convert permanently lost to the Koch propaganda apparatus. Stupid, ineffective you.

This is our fate. Liberals are always told to act like patient parents to their boisterous siblings. Framing is important, George Lakoff chastises us. Do it this way instead. But we don't because we're neither than smart nor that manipulative. Something is either true or it isn't. We can't play jujitsu with minds that suspect science is just one more liberal buzzkill. The earnest student appeals to higher authority, the god of reason, the Enlightenment, and Progress itself. But we're not changing minds because we're human in a civil war where real values are at odds. Indeed, it's not just values but which part of the brain we rely on, the neo-cortex or the basal ganglia. Not even Lincoln could massage the dragons of Eden into sweet surrender. We can't either.

They do have great bars in Portland. Much better now than Seattle with its transformation from a blue collar union town to a hi-tech yuppie magnet.

All the science now points to a foregone conclusion: its too late to do anything. Wait and see what happens, prepare, and work that lizard-shadow in your brain 'cuz you're gonna be using it consciously once the tipping point comes.

Eclectic, it is not settled science that is it "too late." The evidence points to things getting much worse the more carbon we burn, the longer we burn it, and the more feedback loops that kick in.

I remember the first time I heard Rush Limbaugh on the radio; I was with my brother at his small ranch in the wilderness south of Bryce Canyon, Utah. My brother was homesteading a ranch he had purchased and because it was so remote, he was thrilled to be able to pick-up a radio station between 8-10 pm if the airwaves all aligned just right. The program he found most interesting was Rush Limbaugh, probably broadcast out of Sacramento.

1984 is a significant time in history because that is when the FCC required that stations provide free air time for responses to ‘controversial opinions’. Rush LimbaughI was “the first man to proclaim himself liberated from the East Germany of liberal media domination”. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_Limbaugh)

Out in the wilderness my brother and I listened as Rush went on for an hour about the ridiculous global warming fanatics and the scientist who can't say and don't know. Rush was boisterous, belligerent and my brother thought he was crazy but entertaining. Myself, I never voluntarily listened to Rush Limbaugh again.

Well folks the civil war never ended. And its heating up rapidly. Stand By! I think thats what the commander said on the Death Star just before it blew up.

"Think long, Think wrong
Living by the day.
Ill be dead anyway"

WTF think at all"
Just go for it and
kill anyone that gets in your road.
There's a lot of sociopaths out there that believe that and at least a 100 or so are billionaire's.

Ringside and Soleri, I am all for Portland but like Albuquerque they have to work on having a more efficient and professional police department.

eclecticdog: your answer is vertical farming or a 4 by 4 foot garden inside your house. I think I know a place you can get some seeds Monsanto dosent want U to have.

You write:

"...The media wants to propagate the idea that "both sides are to blame" but that's not true. The right has its handed-down dogma on every issue, no curiosity, no interest in the facts — and the vehemence to fight (backed by plutocrats' billions)."

This is the rant that renders the rest of your column meaningless and irrelevant. Frankly, I haven't heard the "media"--which, with the exception of Fox is controlled by the left--do much asserting about both sides being "to blame." But, of course, it's true.

For every right-winger who insists on embracing the status-quo, there is at least one left-winger who is determined to identify, of all potential solutions to any problem, the one "solution" that will result in the greatest growth in the size of the federal government and the greatest intrusion into personal freedom.

At least it's now being referred to as "climate change" and not "global warming" as there is some scientific dispute over how much the earth has "warmed" over the past 15 years. Is it human caused? Regardless of whether that's wholly or even partially true, from an objective point of view spewing tons of smoke and other pollutants into the atmosphere hardly seems like a good idea--even if, these days, much of it is being done by the Chinese. Yes, those guys--the same ones we insist on having free trade with even though their laws and customs with respect to pollution, treatment of labor, etc., are decades behind ours. Why shouldn't they have high speed trains? WE'RE paying for them with all the plastic, lead-painted crap we buy from them by the shipload!

So...let's sequester some carbon. Why not use nature's own method--aka "trees"? If the earth is less able to deal with carbon concentration in the atmosphere, it is possibly likely to the destruction of the equatorial rain forests and other concentrations of trees. Let's plant more--not just on Central Avenue between Thomas and Indian School, but everywhere. Should equatorial nations be compensated for setting aside large portions of the rain forests as "world parks" where logging is managed in a sustainable fashion or forbidden altogether? This could be financed by importers of the lumber and managed by the UN.

In approaching climate change--as in nearly all other issues--a "sustainable policy" should be the key. The Left "gets" sustainability when it comes to the environment, but hasn't a clue when it comes to economics. Hence the same cohort that argues sensibly--in my opinion--for "sustainable" stewardship of the earth (though we might disagree on the methodology to be employed), wants to spend billions on everything else so long as sufficient amounts of "Other People's Money" are perceived to be available.

The Left approaches every issue from the standpoints of "We're the ones who are open-minded and flexible--it's the Right who won't budge" and "We're the ones with the brains, all conservatives are uneducated and stupid" and then wonders why a cordial dialogue cannot be initiated!

The "Cold Civil War" analogy is, in many respects, an accurate one. For example, "donor" states like Arizona contribute taxes to fund trains every hour on the Northeast Corridor while we're lucky to get several a week. If we complain, we're just told that it's our fault because we're Republicans. Never mind that passenger rail--to cite an example--never had a political constituency in Arizona because there's never been enough of it in recent years to matter. Before one cent of state money was spent, California had three trains a DAY between Los Angeles and San Diego--it's easy to see how a political constituency for increasing that service with state spending was easy to develop.

"Right-wing bastions" like Utah, Mesa, and elsewhere can easily see the benefit of additional rail or transit service when they have some to begin with. "Republicans hate trains" just doesn't cut it--either as a put-down of Republicans or as an excuse to deny passenger rail service to Arizona and other "fly-over" states.

cal, What I noticed about the Nevada ranchers is that they had a huge "Freedom for God We Stand" banner all ready to display for the media.

Rogue, when will carbon emissions go down? We're cooked!

@Robt. H: I’ve thought about the tree business. It suffers one flaw. A live tree is good at converting CO2 into a bigger tree. But eventually, live tree becomes a dead tree. A least here in the Southeast, there are very few very old trees. If the hurricanes don’t get them the termites do. A dead tree is converted from tree to methane - a gas that is much worse from a greenhouse gas aspect than CO2.

Here’s one of my ideas. Grow the trees to optimal size – this is almost a science here in the Southeast for Pine Plantations. Pack the built environment with lumber. Like I want residential property to have walls that are a foot thick with solid wood. Not only does this lock up the CO2 indefinitely, it makes for a very well insulated structure. Figure out how to build roads out of wood rather than concrete or asphalt.

This is my favorite planet saving idea. After enjoying your favorite, popularly priced malt beverage – bought by the six pack in cans, carefully snip off the top and bottom of the cans and slice down the side. Flatten this out, shiny side out. This will result in a small rectangle of metal. Find an old piece of plywood and tack the small, shiny rectangular piece of metal to plywood. When you have completely covered the plywood you will have a – more or less – big mirror. Place this somewhere at the proper angle to where incident sunlight reflects it back into space as EM waves in the visible spectrum. You can save the world and get liquored up at the same time. I call that a win-win.

The Left approaches every issue from the standpoints of "We're the ones who are open-minded and flexible--it's the Right who won't budge" and "We're the ones with the brains, all conservatives are uneducated and stupid" and then wonders why a cordial dialogue cannot be initiated!

This is the problem I owned in my rant above. Because we listen to scientists and take them seriously, you think we're prejudiced against Know Nothings. Apparently, the writers of the NYT op-ed piece agree. We should stop emphasizing those areas of disagreement and concentrate on the few commonalities we can find. The only problem is that your culture club seems to be a bit too contrarian for real conversation. It says achingly stupid things like carbon is good for us (translation: the more the better), or that the higher latitudes are too cold and need to be warmer. Or that carbon is necessary for plant growth - trees, e.g. - so let's "solve" climate change by planting more.

I have struggled to remember when the right was ever correct about any issue involving the environment, health, biology, or anything that necessarily involved science. Please help me out here: where did conservatives take a stand in opposition and be proven correct? Cigarette smoking? Yes, it is indeed harmful. CFCs? Turned out they did damage the ozone layer. Evolution? Proved every time you pop an anti-biotic. DDT? We banned it and suddenly bald eagles and condors began to thrive again.

We take climate change seriously to the point of being strident because the American right refuses to engage in reality. Indeed, it relishes its opposition to climate science as yet another cudgel in the culture war. You can politicize any aspect of reality you wish to, but when you politicize science, you've crossed a line and bullshit must be called. It's not that you're too stupid to understand it. It's that you're too eager to misunderstand it.

The right's reflexive anti-intellectualism is not something to be proud of or to defend. It's an embarrassment to anyone who claims to be a cognizant citizen, who weighs evidence soberly and implicitly trusts experts. Not trusting climate scientists is like not trusting your own physician. If you were to say that you have a heart condition but your chiropractor says it's nothing to worry about, you would be justly scorned for your credulity. But because climate science is abstruse and difficult, you feel licensed to mock it.

You have entered this lion's den with a capacity to write coherent thoughts in opposition to this blog's ideological coloration. Good for you. But that doesn't mean your talking points are above criticism, as you'll find out if you stay. I encourage you to hang out here longer. See if we can find those commonalities. The danger in our country is not fisticuffs. It's the echo chambers. We all need to be challenged, needless to say. But the greatest challenge before has a ticking clock attached to it. That's why we're concerned and think you should be as well.

If you can't give up your SUV, consider becoming vegan. The UN says the livestock industry contributes more to greenhouse gas emissions than transportation. http://bit.ly/1ghBksx

Melissa Im almost there. I am almost a vegan, I drive a fit (got 40.8 mpg last tank) and live in about 300 square feet.
Soleri and Bohannan, the solution may be in not talking but killing each other in a second Civil War.
(Oops Im back to Malthus again and I have been trying hard to avoid such.)

Roughly 1,264,000 American soldiers have died in the nation's wars--620,000 in the Civil War and 644,000 in all other conflicts. It was only as recently as the Vietnam War that the amount of American deaths in foreign wars eclipsed the number who died in the Civil War.
Maybe a super bug?

I wanta here from Petro
No post!
I will not lend U my Sartre bio!

I repeat myself. The Americas were OK until the queen decided to send gods soldiers to convert the heathens. And the soldiers, obviously invading illegal aliens, brought their domesticated animals with them.
Another's opinion on the Bundy range war.

Hey, cal - no need to resort to threats... I'm working hard here! (Seriously, this gig is killing me. Today, two sheriff's officers came in at closing and asked if I could feed them. Sheesh.) I barely have time to think between the work and the very very necessary inebriants.

soleri's doing a great job speaking truth to dogma here, and a big welcome to Robert H Bohannan - you, sir, sound like you're ready to engage and perhaps listen. We on "the left" are not fond of our self-referential bubbles, so criticism is welcome. Pay attention... most of us are only reluctantly strident in our opinions. That's why you call us wimps. But we are not reluctant in our affinity to facts.

I enjoyed your barroom rant, soleri, because that's the place where I've had the most fun and the most frustration in conversation. One good thing about Phoenix, you can always find a friendly right-winger a stool or two down the bar. Hell, most of my friends are right-wingers (though half of them don't know it.) I'll just inject one point that you didn't mention, and it's pretty lefty and, well, wimpy. I love my friends, even the idiots who occasionally swell up and threaten to physically "educate" me, and so I sometimes get a begrudged affirmation that I am right after all... until the next time we meet, because they really just got all sentimental on me at the time.

I'm saying that when I start feeling really affectionate while I'm destroying their ideas, it seems to work. Temporarily.

I hope Jon's seemingly spot-on characterization of the times just isn't as dire as it sounds. I fear that it is, however. I know many of my friends will be on the other side of the barricades when (and if) the shit goes down. Sigh.

thanks petro. U have won a 1st edition of the life of Jean Paul. I gotta get rid of at least 200 more books so i can find a place to sit down in 300 sq feet.
an update i have just been notified that range war Bundy (there was at least 400 that fought for the South)
"is LDS and like most commies refusing to pay".

"Bundy... is LDS and like most commies refusing to pay"

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is disheartened and depressed by this horrible domestic confrontation. Exacerbated by political ideology. We're not looking at the interest of the commons here (and I'm not saying that the Bundy's don't have a case, but can we look at it without dragging the Second Amendment into it?)

Our concept of "private property" really needs to be revisited. Ack, duh, and...


Petro I agree
However it appears this (I not saying its right the way it came down but)is public land and the Bundys unlike other users have not been paying the grazing fee since 1993. As U probably know there is an LDS philosophy best described by their saying, "bleeding the beast".

U all dont know if you read Krugmans piece from the front pages but its interesting.


I just hate going to bed mad but
congress just spent millions of dollars to tell me that the CIA exceeded its legal authority. Like who didnt already know?
A waste of $$$.
Who is it that's not hearing and knowing?
The Jihadist's told us in 1993 "we will be back and this time we will fly airplanes into your buildings." And the CIA and the rest of the federal big law dogs just let it happen.
Uruguay just keeps looking better and better.

Saw a story on "CBS This Morning" about a documentary film series titled "Years of Living Dangerously." Using celebrities such as Matt Damon, James Cameron and Harrison Ford, the filmmakers stated goal is to "start a global dialogue" about climate change and let the "healing of the planet" begin. While it's due to air on Showtime, Episode 1 of the series is apparently free to watch online.


AZ is not a donor state.

Thank you, Joanna.

eclecticdog, my understanding is that you are correct, Az is not a donor state. There are several issues that could be negotiated in Robert Bohannan's post, but I have decided that it is not worth the effort.
Robert, Az gets more federal tax return than we give.

The "Arizona's Continuing Crisis" page contains the latest data on Arizona as a substantial net taker of federal taxes:


Thanks, Rogue, for the column and the "net taker" link.

cal, Uruguay: truththeory.com/2014/02/07/uruguays-president-nominated-for-nobel-peace-prize-for-legalizing-marijuana/

Just an observation regarding science in general, and engineering. It is by its nature a conservative enterprise. As a student you’re given a series of books that basically say: “here’s what we know.” If you don’t think the book is right, the onus on you is to prove why it’s wrong. The physical sciences are pretty cut and dry. The world got along quite nicely using simple Newtonian mechanics. That was all well and good until Einstein came along and said “not so fast”. To which the world said: “very interesting theory you have here Al”. But that’s all it remained until and irrefutable experiment could be performed to prove its correctness. That had to wait for a total eclipse of the sun so that the light from a distant star could be shown to be bent by the mass of the sun. There was a very provocative book written 15 or 20 years ago titled, as near as I can remember, “The End of Science”. The main thesis being that we have (temporarily?) reached the limits of our ability to observe. Such trendy topics in physics such as string theory or multi-verses are untestable. Personally, I think plenty of more science to be done in things that we can see. For example, as near as can be told, space in the universe seems to be expanding. Where is this “extra” space coming from? Here’s another. Electrons seem to change their orbits instantaneously when they absorb or emit a photon of energy. I’m willing to buy that they are changing very, very fast. But the idea of instantaneous anything is hard to buy.

Engineering is conservative to. I guess you’d call engineering applied science. But a lot of engineering is determined heuristically. That is: “here’s is what we’ve found to work. Deviate at your own peril.” One can only be pleased that Microsoft doesn’t design cars, or planes or bridges or anything else that can kill you if it has a “bug”.

Which brings me to Phoenix’s climate situation – as it exists right now. It’s too hot. It has water issues. There a lot of others, but let’s stick to these. What can be done, right now, at a reasonable cost, to address these issues? Some ideas:
• Work with asphalt shingle manufacturers to produce a super-reflective shingle. Every photon of energy that can be reflected back into space in visible light range is one we don’t have to deal with here.
• Steel roofs are very popular here. We have different problems. Develop a super-reflective steel roof.
• Terra cotta roofing: develop a glaze that is super reflective.
• Outlaw asphalt paving. Require use of a super reflective concrete mix.
• For exterior spaces that are not planted in something, encourage the usage of ultra-white sand.
• Develop a simple, inexpensive one solar cell, one battery 12 volt system that anyone with a ladder can install. This can easily power LED lighting systems and home electronics. Your car runs on 12 volt dc power. Cal, who apparently lives in a RV, is probably our best source of 12 volt appliance availability. Make these things modular so that a 2nd, 3rd, etc. modules can be added as resources permit. Have a simple, fast, free permitting and inspection system.

I can think of dozens more but the Master’s is on. I generally don’t care for golf, but I do like the Masters and the US Open.

As an aside for no reason at all; we have floods in my area earlier this week. Four to Seven inches of rain depending on where you were. Seven inches in my neighborhood. I’m on top of the mountain – so no big problem for me. Down in the valley a shopping center was flooded again; for about the third time in the last 15 years. Went down to take a look and they’re cleaning the whole mess up. I guess that’s just a cost of doing business there. As long as they’re doing it with their own money, I guess I have no problem with that. I do have a problem when people do stupid things and expect us to pay for it.

wkg, I have been married to two North American Indians.
They both had about the same perspective on europeans.
"my people never pitched a tepee in a river bed."
I have solar on my motorhome, The whole set up was about 900 bucks in 2003.
I like Jose Mujica a good commie for this century.

Sort of like "never set up camp under a dead tree"

Freeloading at the expense of the public, LDS communists win round one. I hear the feds have hired El Topo to handle this problem.

El Topo cartel or El Topo movie? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uqb4Jy0GTg

Cal. I’ve gotten to the age where you start to circle up the wagons family-wise. Going to have to leave Birmingham for Cocoa/Orlando,Florida even though the area totally sucks. Not as bad as Phoenix, but almost.

Was thinking of buying a ½ acre or acre and plunking a single-wide down on it. But then I’d have to be out in the county somewhere which I really don’t want to do. I’m thinking maybe an RV is the way to go. Park it somewhere in a trailer park. But then, in Florida there are some pretty nice trailer parks.

Any general advice regarding this matter?

Good Krugman piece from The Front Page. Thanks cal & Rogue.

Been thinking about the water part of Phoenix’s problems. I think it’s safe to say the Phoenix has grabbed about as much “loose water” as there is to grab. Pumping from aquifer is a long term losing proposition. I assume that water is relatively expensive in Phoenix – and there are not too many efficiency and wastage gains to be realized.

But then I see that the Gulf of California isn’t all that far away. There’s infinity of salt water there. Right up next to the gulf is a huge empty desert. My mind screams: solar desalination. Given the space you’re given to work with and the available solar energy, this could be a fairly low tech – low efficiency operation. You might even be able to use wind mills to pump the water to Phoenix. Wind mills are a lot better at pumping water than making electricity.

Even it the water to the metro was devoted to an “urban trees” program, I could see an enormous benefit.

While I'm not much of a transit guy, I'm very much a walkabilty guy. Walkability has two crubial factors: is it worth walking to and is the walk itself reasonably pleasant? Phoenix suffers on both counts. What to do about this situation?

It would appear the walking a typical Phoenix stret is walking an inferno. For the most part the streets are too wide and bake in the sun all day. Narrow the streets. Provide every source of shade you can think of. Mist them if you need to. Every person just walking around is one less person in a heat belching machine - weather it's a bus or a car.

Then there's the walking to part of the equation. I'm not at the "do whatever you want stage. But I think "no harm-no foul" is the best policy as far is business licensing zoning etc.

Checking in late as I was at El Templo de Los Sajuaros listening to the wind blowing thru the Organ Pipes.

Suzzane, Jodo is the Man. Now playing at the Camelview.

WGK, Water: Read Desert Cadillac by Marc Reisner and Killing the Hidden Waters by Charles Bowden for a start. Shortly after 911 I helped inspect Phoenix’s water system. It’s a huge city in itself. With water rights coming as far as from a lake in Nevada. Run off is piped to the Nuclear plant. Desalination, screw that lets try and save what’s left of the oceans.

WGK, Motor Homes are expensive. Fifth wheels and trailers not so expensive. So you have to consider a number of things. You going to roll down the road a lot a motor home pulling an efficient car is OK. I bought a huge motor home 11 years ago and it only has 7000 plus miles. I would have been better off with a huge trailer and have someone move it for me. In 11 years I have had it in 5 places. Construction is very important. I recommend something built on the west coast. Most of these constructions are really cheap. Insulation is important. U do not need a satellite on the roof. They make portable ground units. I do not have cable or satellite as I have no need for tv. Strength of structures and cabinets are important. Get something with at least two slide outs. Never get something without two refrigeration units. Take you’re your age and health into consideration. Get a flat walk in shower and they make these things with wide halls and handicap provisions. Get lots of window view and get it tinted. I had mine aftermarket tinted over the factory tint and I put Limo tint in a number of places. (but then I carry medical prescription in my car as I have a fully tinted windshield.) Make sure you and if you have someone else living with you to spend two or three months living in something like what you have in mind to buy. (Rent One).

Killing Fields" Note Uruguay is not in the stats.

Thanks for the RV info. I think I’ll just go the single-wide route. Lived in one for a year in college with a roommate. I know there is more than enough room. RV’s just a lot sturdier. That’s a consideration in Florida with harricanes, tornadoes, severe thunderstorms, etc. Fifth wheels seem to be just a little on the small side – but I need to check them out. I like the idea of being able to move easily- even if I have to rent a 250 truck to do it. Never considered the geezer aspects of a residence – but I guess that is getting to be more and more of a consideration. I think the RV option is off the table.

Re desalinization: I think the amount of water in the world is more or less a constant. The amount of fresh water is minuscule. It all ends up a salt water sooner or later. I find desalinization to be entirely natural. Water evaporates in the Pacific, gets blown into North America, where it condenses and falls as rain or snow. Flows back into ocean. Repeat cycle as desired. I think of desalinization as merely a short circuit of the main cycle. If you get good enough at it you can let the Colorado and the Salt Rivers just go back to be natural rivers. I don’t view all human interactions with the natural environment as being necessary bad

here I care to disagree!
" I don’t view all human interactions with the natural environment as being necessary bad."

"Should I just go off and kill myself?"

Cal: Is there any interaction that you could agree with?

"But it is interesting that no one on the right — not even in what remains of Bill Buckley's enterprise of intelligent conservatism — "

Buckley's 2004 "apology" for his support of segregation decades prior was some amazing revisionist history. He pretended that he opposed the Civil Rights Act out of a misguided interpretation of the Constitution, but in reality, he gave full-throated support to white supremacy and advised white communities to oppose integration with whatever force was necessary. He was basically Bull Connor with a more hifalutin vocabulary.


Donna, If you found Mitt Romney's day pandering at a Nascar race as amusing as I did, try to imagine Buckley at one, cup of Bud Lite in hand, ball cap perched on his head, droning effetely to his good buddy, Larry The Cable Guy.

Pat and Donna, something to look forward to?


wkg: sure humans leave the planet earth.
"and the dogs sat around the campfire and debated the possible existence of man"
Simak in City.

And if the GOP wins the senate you can look forward to more of this.
and you and I maybe their next victims.

Putins Eugenics agent in the Ukraine.


And as you know many white folks in the good ole USA think Putin is the MAN.

Cliven Bundy rants like a mentally ill fundamentalist LDS elder. He swears allegiance to the state of Nevada while denying that the United States (but bleed the beast) exists and in defiance to Nevada's constitution.


That photo heading the Cliven Bundy Atlantic article is chilling. That moron (Eric Parker) should be arrested as a domestic terrorist. The way this has been handled on all sides (save the BLM law enforcement, who I think were remarkably restrained given all the provocations put in front of them while they tried to enforce the law).

Journalists did a horrible job as most people think 50 other ranchers were run off by the BLM. NO reporting whatsoever on what the facts are. I am just guessing, but 50+ ranchers and their cattle on scrub desert doesn't even make sense. Overgrazed?

The right did everything possible to start a revolution based on this doddering old fool. Nothing he said made sense and he's up to his eyeballs in unpaid fees. Bundy and his family are nothing but moochers and takers.

Obama tucks tail and runs. The BLM seizes all that cattle and then just gives them back!? WTF? BLM law enforcement was not backed up at all. The constitutional-scholar-in-chief just wings it with no regard to law - just opinion polls or politics. I've never known the law to be so malleable, but then again I'm in the justice system for plebs. Leadership fail (again).

Imagine if this Bundy character were on the far left instead of the far right. Say, he was occupying a city sidewalk in the name of the people, or giving a criminal "sanctuary". He would have been dealt with quickly and harshly, and there wouldn't be any tears shed. But Bundy shows how exceptionalism works on the right now. It's not enough to hate half the people who live in your country, the same people you're screwing over by not paying your bills. No, you have to hate the country itself by proclaiming yourself above the law. This is the American right today in all its pathological victimhood. You can be well-off and still see yourself as a beleaguered because the government has laws you don't like!

After the Waco fiasco, a line was crossed. The right was no longer intent on upholding traditional "law and order" values. It decided that it was actually more fun to proclaim their "principles" to be above the law and "illegitimate" government. What makes a government illegitimate? Well, it's not always obvious but having a Democrat at the helm certainly helps.

Timothy McVeigh, the nation's worst-ever domestic terrorist, had two voluntary associations in his life: The NRA and the Republican Party. He was also a fantasist who wanted to foment a race war, ala The Turner Diaries. This same pathology is being celebrated today with this elderly nitwit. It was on display in suburban Kansas City with the white supremacist/Nazi last weekend.

At what point do the media begin to point out just how insane the American right has become? Will conservatives suggest, if ever so politely, that it might be a good idea to obey laws? Unlikely. That's all so quaint now. Laws are what you use to justify letting brown people die in the desert of thirst. When it comes to your tribe, however, law is simply oppression.

The Southern Poverty Law Center is the go-to source on right-wing extremism. It had been tracking this man. It's telling that even "mainstream" conservatives revile the SPLC and attacked St. Janet when, as Das Homeland Security Secretary, she warned about rising right-wing violent extremists.

Agreed soleri. If this was Occupy Bunkerville the police and military response would have been overwhelming, the hounds would have been released, and everyone maced. The USA is one gunshot away from watering the "Tree of Liberty" and the right wants to soak it "left-wing" (ie, doesn't agree with us, godless, gay, ethnic, irreligious, nonreligious, agnostic, atheist, socialist, tree-hugger, communist, anarchist, non-Christian, etc., etc., etc.) blood.

Nevada law enforcement and politicians from Harry Reid (READ LDS members) on down, are not going to touch this thing. And the feds blew it. It's not Texas that will secede from the US, it's Idaho and Utah. The feds cant keep the nuts in Idaho from killing hundreds of wolves. Wonder what would happen if government snipers took out a 900 cows.

and its more than right wing religious conservatives and all that stuff.
Utah or South Carolina and on and on its about WHITE!

eclecticdog read this":

and dont give up HOPE.

cal, I didn't but after reading the link I'm not surprised. What's your professional take on the BLM officers during this manufactured crisis?

I just watched the video. Mack is a retired Graham Co. AZ sheriff! And he's was worried about the BLM shooting first? He most fevered wish is that they fired on "the flag" or a women so as to start a Tea-Party- Taliban-style massacre. A liar, a terrorist, and a pussy.


Bad Land Management.
This thing should have been handled from the top down of the Justice Department. I cant believe the lack of intelligence or understanding of the FLDS mind. There was a time when the US sent the Calvary towards Utah to gain compliance with US laws. And Utah got statehood by agreeing to cooperate.
A secret grand jury indictment should have been obtained for this crazy old man and wait for him to step off his property.

It was a mistake to try and take the cows in one big round up. Rustling a few at a time would have been wiser.
I would have tried creating an incitement (water hole) for the cows in an area near by and slowly take a few head causing the Bundys to round up the cows in pens where it would cost to feed them.

You're a sly one cal! ;P

A history lesson: Of course the whole thing got snitched off before the cops got there. Gwhiz can imagine how that happen.


U think we would learn that big is seldom good. USA adversaries have know this for the last 100 years. Hard to prove hit and runs. Napoleon would have been astounded at this war BLM almost ignited.

As would Sun Tzu
Feds violated most of these.

Should you have a desire to get up close and personal with the rabid Richard Mack just Google Richard Mack second amendment.

While Jon scribbles away on his next book.


So what U think a good Idea or bad?
And can a democracy live with theocratic's.
Muslims and Mormons seem to have the impression that democracies are not favored by their gods.

I'm 100% schizophrenic on this Bundy case. I'll try to write it out, and maybe I'll gain some clarity.

On the one hand, I would like us to be cooperative in our social/legal obligations/conventions. On the other hand, I am extremely uneasy over coercive enforcement.

(I like the tribal way, where miscreants - who are considered somewhat crazy - are shunned, or treated with wry amusement. It's a cage as good as a prison as far as I'm concerned.)

Then there's the larger issue, whereby I do my "lefty" thing and try not to objectify "the gubmint" so that I might retain an identification with the only public-sector voice capable of countering private-sector acquisitiveness and exteriorities.

But then you get the NSA and the rest of the "shadow government," with the actual government kneeling in abject obeisance (Feinstein's recent rant does not impress me.) Add to that the militarization of the police forces that, whether intended or not, render Posse Comitatus laws moot. I agree with the others here that leftys who challenge the authorities are dealt with pretty swiftly and the media puts the perfect spin on it. When these motherfuckers on the right (please pardon my liberal French) blow it up, they know that the story becomes shaded with tales of patriots past, while the left just gets the "terrorist commie" treatment.

Makes you want to go a bit Waco... er, whacko... yourself.

But no, we're content with chaining ourselves to an endangered tree, a bulldozer, or the White House fence - because we really don't want to fucking hurt anyone, truth be told, and also because we know that since we receive bad reviews and prison time for just doing that shit, holy crap we know what would happen if we tried to be a Bundy!

...and no, I don't feel any less schizophrenic. Any of you Roguesters therapists?

petro u know the meds for this but then u have a job.

I am not impeded in my meds, my friend. I do have some principles. :)

Ruppert killed himself.

9/11 truther Mike Ruppert kills himself after finishing his radio show

Really? Is he to be known as a "9/11 Truther" now? He brought us so much more than that reasonable speculation.

Petro, government is force. It's the essential Hobbesian bargain we submit to in lieu of lives that are nasty, brutish and short. I don't trouble myself with the problem of individual consent as an essential counterweight. True, you give up your metaphysical freedom but you gain material freedom. One is theoretical, the other actual.

What we see in the Bundy case is a potpourri of tics and grievances, many of which are racial/tribal, and others which are utopian. For the anarcho-capitalist, the essential quality of government is coercion and violence. And what would they replace it with? There's a lot of mumbo-jumbo about courts and judges enforcing property rights, but once you boil it down to the core issues, it looks suspiciously like what we already have. The exceptions aren't interesting until you get to their rejection of the social compact itself. That's why Bundy is a lightning rod. The far right in America obviously has little problem with coercion and violence. Indeed, they seem to revel in it. What they don't like is the idea that government actually makes the lives of others somewhat secure. In their resentment about "others" they managed to con themselves into thinking they made it entirely on their own and society has no right to their cooperation and support.

What jumps out in this particular case is the obvious self-dealing of Bundy. He's grazing cattle on public land. Did he somehow think he could expropriate it without due process? As for his supporters, they seem like the usual array of soreheads and losers who feel lost in contemporary America. Change is an ordeal, pace Hoffer, but it shouldn't cripple the common project. I'm sorry people feel alienated from society and "others" (whose skin hues are often disturbingly dusky). There is always a dangerous notion among the psychologically bereft that they can recover something that has irrevocably departed the physical plane.

The rhetoric of revolution is tedious for this reason. The righties invoke the authority of the past and sacred (to themselves) scriptures. The lefties invoke grand abstractions like equality and social justice, which are my values,too. But I'm not a revolutionary even though I'm deeply despairing about this nation. In the end, all we have is our willingness to abide one another in common respect and compassion. I have my own nostalgia for those times when people were more naturally humble, respectful, and forbearing. But we can't force ourselves into cultural matrices that no longer fit. We are a work in progress that is never completed. Our knowing bravado and smugness notwithstanding, that is also our salvation.

Well, the 800 lb. gorilla here is the idea of private property, of course. It needs to be rethunk. Anyway:

We are a work in progress that is never completed. Our knowing bravado and smugness notwithstanding, that is also our salvation.

...this is poetry.

Ah yes poetry for sure I wonder if there are or were poets that advocated violence?
And speaking of violence, I think the feds had every right to have "greenlighted" the terrorist Mack. Would could get Bloomberg to pay for the snipers defense.

Soleri, It occurs to me that you can afford to take a gun familiarization course.
U R a person that soaks up knowledge like a sponge. I can probably loan you a gun. No need to start your own secure walk in gun closet. U never know U might write with rapid fire LEAD instead of a pencil.
What U think Mapstone, know where Soleri might find a Colt Python?

whoops I green lighted Mack should have been nut job Idaho Bircher Eric Parker.
Or maybe both.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.


Post a comment

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

My Photo

Your email address:

Powered by FeedBlitz