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October 25, 2013


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Jon, its hard for me to find three things I like between 7th street and 7th Avenue from Lincoln to Adams.
The photo looks 1950?

Great piece! And you will be happy to learn that the trees they are planting along the sidewalks and in the huge planters are not Palo Verdes but Chinese Pistache trees; a heat/drought tolerant, low water variety that does best in "full sun" and can thrive in urban areas with good water drainage (doesn't always do well in very wet soil). These are perfect for Phoenix because if the trees have too much shade they don't grow round or oval crowns but misshapen branches. I believe some of the trees in Civic Space Park are Chinese Pistache.

Mature Chinese Pistache in the fall:

No one goes to Hanny's for the food, it is all about the charcuterie and the drinks.

1st Street and Central are the only areas of CityScape that are nearly 100% urban and face/open up to the street. The inward facing blocks on Jefferson and Washington are the problem.

i recommend a Sajuaro park from 1st street to 1st avenue and Jefferson to Adams with Mexican food push carts.

I have been ingesting fresh green corn and mole tamales for the past two days straight from old Mexico. And U can now get pineapple tamales. Better than anything city scape has to offer. And the serapes are better clothes than offered by Urban Outfitters.

I would hate to have to wear a serape in the summer, or have to push those carts without any shade. And I don't think saguaros would feel completely at home in the flatter alluvial soils of Central Phoenix. I think they enjoy their slopes.

How about this Cal, let's make an imaginary trade: we'll give you high desert wilderness and we'll plan for a densely populated Central City. More cacti where they belong and more people where walkable neighborhoods can flourish.

Meant Allen Ginsberg.

Ok phxsunfan. A deal
And Ginsberg was supposed to go on previous post

Cal if I had the power or the capital, I would definitely help Scottsdale and Phoenix buy more land in the northern stretches to turn into preserves. I'm actually surprised that Scottsdale seems to be taking the land preserve initiative as seriously as it has.

Jon, thank you for pointing out the restaurant glut. This is not just a Phoenix thing; in my travels, I've seen it in countless cities trying to revitalize downtrodden downtowns. It's just a meaningless shortcut. As the economy continues to slumber, lots of us are cutting back, and that means eating at home. Further, in the Central Phoenix core, there is a lot of redundancy menu-wise. Seriously: how many pricey burgers and sweet potato fries can a person eat?

A someone who considers herself to be an avowed pedestrian, the city has no idea what being pedestrian friendly means. I carry a personal shade structure, i.e., an umbrella to most, know which side of the street I should be on according to the time of day and the time of year, and know which streets to walk on. 1st Street is definitely not one of my choices except perhaps in the evening during the fall & spring. It's far too boring. My choices are usually Central, as I may be on my way to City Hall, 2nd Street if going to the convention center or the Collier Center, or 7th Street when going to Historic Heritage Square. On the return to Central Station, I usually come up 1st Ave. While the Pistasche trees are better (although I do like Palo verdes too), they will not matter if the tree butchers have their way with them. That's half the problem with the trees in the inner core. Why would you thin them out in the summer time so they provide no canopy shade? Makes no sense to me.

Keep writing about us Jon. Someday, some year, someone will actually pay attention.

Anyone here ever had the chance to walk Denver's 16th Street Mall? It reminds me of Downtown Crossing in Boston: Seedy, dirty, full of awful chain retail and restaurants, and, just hanging on.
I hope Phoenix doesn't go this route with Adams. It certainly wouldn't be an improvement.

We have a lot of those problems in downtown Boise, just at a smaller scale. The public transit is pitiful, and the restaurant saviors tend to expire after three months, and somebody else rolls in to take a shot at it. Thankfully, little chain restaurant action downtown. The nightlife downtown on the weekends supports a plethora of taxicabs, and the DUI wing of the Law Enforcement Industrial Complex. And we have a lot of street level brokerages and real estate companies too. I always love to read about Phoenix, because there are so many things to learn about Boise from it, even though we are a much smaller city.

John O -- Boise is dirty and it sucks -- just like Albertson's. It's far beyond third rate. Phoenix is heaven compared to Boise.

I blame the Mormons.

Much of what Rogue writes about Seattle and urban living is taken for granted in east coast major metropolitan areas. Although the newly urbanized western US creates a choice of either urban or suburban living, many residents of places such as DC or NYC have had this choice for decades. The preference for urban living has always been limited by the cost of living and the challenge of raising children in large cities. It is changing somewhat as affluent seniors decide to remain or move into urban areas, but prices will limit a major demographic shift.

Headless, Phoenix is great because we do not allow Mormons inside the city limits. Any attempt is immediately challenged by roving gangs of Apache Indians and illegal Mexicans. However the LDS has surrounded Phoenix and Tucson and is currently in charge of the state legislator and governors office. 10 percent of everything particularly ADOT built roadways goes to Salt Lake.

In addition, they have claimed the land beside the rural freeways with ersatz businesses -- much like the railroads did in days of yore.

Mormons are a blight upon America.

Donna, good to hear that someone else notices the tree"butchers". They take a beautiful round tree and make it an anorexic Twiggy.

There are a lot of criticisms that can be levied on Boise, but dirty? That's just troll business. Especially coming from someone extolling the virtues of the East Coast.
And the reason Mormons are considered a blight on America is that they are mostly Republicans.
Mormons are quintessentially American. Their bullshit patriarchal religion is no more noxious than most of which passes for spirituality in this country.

Short sighted John. But its late. Later.

Now now bloggers don 't give Mormons too much attention and blame at the expense of transplants from the midwest.

I'm a little surprised to see Boise trashed in these comments. For a city a small fraction the size of Phoenix, it has a fairly lively downtown. There's even a department store! Lots of nice old buildings, too, including the state capitol. If Boise isn't quite "hip", it definitely has a better chance of getting to Urban Nirvana than Phoenix (the Josephine Tussaud of great American metropolises).

The Mormon slur is silly and irrelevant. Has anyone seen Salt Lake City? Another city punching outside its weight class, its downtown is much, much better than Phoenix's. If Mormons are the problem, that may be because we have too few of them.

What all good cities have (and Phoenix will never have) are good bones. Portland is magnificent less for its urban-growth boundary and excellent transit than for this simple fact. It's a city with extraordinary character. It wasn't sanitized of its retail/residential texture by urban planners place-making for the Jetsons. All through this city you'll see businesses that have been around for a very long time. In Phoenix, that would be the Hi-Liter Lounge on 12th St. Okay, that was mean. All right, Durant's!

The problem successful cities have is dealing with too much a good thing. Not surprisingly, a lot of people want to live there and drive up the cost of housing. As a result, the middle-class gets pushed out to the dreary Mesas on the periphery (Oregon's Gresham and Beaverton have trees but are every bit as forlorn as Phoenix suburbs). The solution is not to destroy great cities with suburbanized values (a solution from the Joel Kotkin School of City Hatred) but to find ways to let people love their cities in small and subversive steps. Phoenix could start by doing what its urban stakeholders want and kill off those horrifying suicide lanes on 7th St & Ave.

Denver has a downtown boom in residential because well-to-do yuppies are willing to live in reclaimed industrial land if that's what it takes to create an urban playground. The 16th St Mall is one of those awful solutions from the 1980s that screams "run for you life! Urban renewal!" Still, Denver's virtues are so numerous that its various flaws are forgiven despite the heavy toll they've taken on the city's once rich character.

Decorative benches and streetscaping are the formaldehyde of dead downtowns. Phoenix would probably be better off just letting the homeless have the place. I know that sounds harsh, but 40 years of "planning" have not revived this corpse. Every time that something lifelike appears, the appartachiks of planning find a way to kill it. Phoenix has a downtown suitable for a city the size of Wichita (except Wichita has a nicer downtown). I know people are not supposed to notice these things but we do. A lot of money has been spent trying to convince people that spiffed-up dead is better than dirty and alive.

Mr. Talton, It occurs to me that the subsidy you speak of for quaint shops of varying description that face the street will have to be available for some time or until more housing is built. (That “retail/residential texture” that soleri describes.) Many times in older cities, the butcher the baker and the candlestick maker’s shop is family owned and operated. Use a hat shop for example; how does a hat shop survive in downtown Phoenix without very cheap rent? And then, how do you keep second hand stores from cropping up?

soleri, Salt Lake is fabulous but Mesa is “dreary”? I think Mesa has done an excellent job of trying to revitalize downtown. They have a very good farmers market on the weekends and I especially love the new Arts center. (Like the old Mesa Arts Center, it offers classes and community theater.) Mesa has unique shops that face the street and public transit.

Where Mesa is definitely family oriented and Scottsdale is “the most western”, Phoenix needs to adopt more of a clear identity.

John O, I love your sentiment “Mormons are quintessentially American. Their bullshit patriarchal religion is no more noxious than most of which passes for spirituality in this country.” I see that, but I also think that politically Mormons are quintessentially Jew. Meaning that they distribute within the clan, which can be a problem in a democracy.

cal, I thought that if you were born before 1946 you were part of the Beatniks. Or, did the Beatniks become Hippies?

Headless, do you know where Lucy is?

Always good to see a 'Soleri' appearance. I agree with all his eloquent and spot-on points.

Suzanne, Mesa has made some well-meaning steps downtown. But this is after the city allowed Main Street to virtually die as it shifted retail to Alma School and Southern, which in time became its own slum as the real-estate rackets moved outward. The Arts Center alone is not enough. If it ends up cannibalizing downtown Phoenix, as in stealing the Phoenix Symphony, that's the same old poison. Mesa is more populous than Minneapolis or St. Louis and what does it have to show for it? We'll see what happens.

Yes, subsidies would have to be in place a long time. There's a disconnect between ideas and capital: Some people have great ideas, others have the dough and would rather invest it in derivatives and real-estate hustles. Now the small shop faces the Amazon effect.

Still, it would be a start. Bring, say, World of Maps downtown. Seattle has two downtown hat shops. Phoenix, none. But Seattle has 1) Nearly 200,000 downtown employees and major headquarters, and 2) Many people with 'urban values' who don't freak out if they can't drive up to the door of a mall and actually enjoy taking transit. Phoenix has few, so far.

Thanks for your comments, Suzanne. And thanks, Donna -- we need you more often.

Cal, the photo is from the late 1950s. My memory of that terminal is of multiple small businesses along with the bus station.

As to Salt Lake, it is an amazing urban center for its size, and the result of the LDS refusing to abandon it, and indeed investing to keep downtown healthy. This, in turn, has brought in a 'gentile' hipster/techie culture. Salt Lake City punches above its weight. It also has a great rail system. All supported by the Mormons.

Mesa is different. The affluent Mormons moved to places such as Gilbert Lakes. Downtown was abandoned. The beautiful Southern Pacific Railroad station was allowed to become abandoned and burn down. That act of civic vandalism says much.

Mesa's problems are highly complex. But to highly oversimplify, it has a different breed of Mormon running things for years. Scott Smith is an exception for the better.

Oh Donna, you just put a smile and a chuckle on my face for the whole day:

"A personal shade structure"

I love it. I'll never use the word umbrella again.

How about a "Personal precipitated moisture diversion cupola"

Chris, I am sorry to hear that about the 16 Street mall in Denver. When I was there in the 1990s, it was one example of a decent pedestrian mall because of the step-on, step-off free bus shuttle.

Suzanne im busy helping wily coyote toss Sahuaro seeds on the other side of the Mountain. Back later

Jon, the free shuttle is definitely a positive attribute to the 16th Street Mall. Still, this avenue of chain eateries and retailers seems to be attracting the wrong kind of clientele lately. Eg, a wheelchair-bound woman was robbed of her iPhone last week by a 19-year-old thug in broad daylight. They caught the guy because he committed the crime in full view of surveilance cams.
Denver's done a really nice job reclaiming the former skid row and industrial areas that are now Lower Downtown and the Highlands neighbrhood. The city has put a lot of emphasis on preserving the historic warehouses and single-family homes in these areas, and as a result, a lot of young, educated and increasingly affluent people are moving into downtown.
My wife and I moved from Cherry Creek to Lincoln Park in downtown Denver last May. We bought a century-old Craftsmnan bungalow on a double lot for a good price. Our neighbors tell us our 'hood used to be a dangerous place as recently as 10 years ago. Now, it's considered one of the up-and-coming areas of Denver. Yeah, there is a soup kitchen a block away from us that attracts transients who litter on our "parking lawns" and stumble around drunk. But, we have a hell of a view from the front and backyard -- you can see the 55-story Republic Tower, the 52-story Wells Fargo Center and the 50-story CenturyLink Tower -- and we can walk to restaurants, grocery stores and other businesses in 10 mins or less.
Things continue to evolve here, Jon. I guess I write these observations about the Queen City of the Plains because your columns about Phoenix are how I stay on top of the changes that are taking place in the city that I grew up in.

Feel free to post off-topic stuff. I don't know if the Friday saloon is working. Too many of our readers are shy. So when I can I will try to make a second post in the week. But you can always go OT and start a new conversation in the thread.

The world's second largest reinsurance company just completed a five year study about climate change, storms and the impact they are having on the industry.

A very interesting observation was discovered. (This is worldwide, not just USA)

The frequency and severity of storms have not changed enough to make a statistical impact on losses.

However, demographics, the ever increasing concentration of population in catastrophe prone regions has been the major factor in the increasing size of losses.

REB, did I read Malthus?

Why we need the Snowdens and the Greenwalds.

Assassinated DEA Agent Kiki Camarena Fell in a CIA Operation Gone Awry, Say Law Enforcement Sources

He Was Killed, They Say, Because "He Knew Too Much" About Official Corruption in the Drug War

Why we need good investigative reporters.
Jon. I note that Walter Pincus has written disparagingly about Greenwald and Snowden. He also wrote disparagingly about Gary Webb when Webb outed the CIA and their selling of drugs to finance the Contra wars. Makes me wonder if Pincus is still a CIA Lap Dog. However Greenwald challenged him and the Washington Post had to admit Pincus got a lot of stuff wrong, as usual. When Webb shot himself he left a Poster from the Kentucky Post in his trash can. The poster represented his first story there under Vance Trimble who wrote that unlike some papers the Kentucky Post would never kill a story under pressure from powerful interests. He also wrote. “There should be no fetters on reporters. Nor must they tamper with the truth but give light so the people will find their own way.”,0
Should something happen to Greenwald, I feel that Pincus is partially responsible for killing the truth and occasionally the death of a good investigative reporter.
Pincus possibly was a Government informant spying on the National Student Association back in the sixties. For more on Pincus and his involvement: Whiteout: The CIA, Drugs and the press. By Alexander Cockburn

I've been through Boise dozens of times in the last ten years. It's dirty, boring, and full of Mormons.

I'd never live there.

Lash is correct in that Mormons are not tolerated in Phoenix proper. They can go back to Zog for all I care.

Soleri, I guess called Phoenix the world worst wax museum this side of Europe. If he is right melting should occur soon. As to his comment of a “slur” reference Salt Lake City and there are few too many Mormons. That’s like saying China doesn’t have a smog problem (Google Salt Lake air quality) and there are not enough Militant Muslims. My prediction for years has been the last war will be the M & M war.
LDS is not a religion it’s an economic engine started by an epileptic that controlled his seizures and visions of angels and golden tablets by learning from the local Indians how to smoke Missouri River bank marijuana containing ground up white lizard. Salt Lake may be the home of LDS liberalism but Arizona is the home of LDS kooks.
Regarding “phoenix bones” the bones (Akimel O'odham and Tohono O'odham) were there they just got ignored by land speculators. The Rozenzweig brothers among others that backed Barry Goldwater and Charter government were the beginning of Zoning for profit. Welcome to the Sandlot created by greed.
The Hi-Liter bar was for years a cop bar. You could get drunk, get laid by a topless go-go dancer and get beat up in the parking lot by a bunch of drunken cops. Durant’s, I got offered a bribe at Durant’s by two cops and the Phoenix Policeman’s Ball promoter in 75. If you had a desire to feel close to corrupt assholes and at the same time get some of the best food and booze in town it was Durant’s. It’s a pimple today.
The “suicide lanes” would be a good start on loving your city. At 73 years of age I hate driving in the city but honestly the suicide lanes work if you pay attention. Of course we all should live in Portland the city of love as in 50 years it’s the only place on the planet that will not be 130 degrees in the summer. I envy Soleri and Portland but I think I will just keeping moving closer to Mexico. A people I understand.
Per Soleri we should let the homeless have Phoenix, not a bad idea. Maybe there will be a resurrection of Horn Toads . I haven’t seen one in years.

On my way up to Portland, I made a point to pass through Fresno (Spanish for ash tree). It's the city Phoenix is most often compared to - at least in this site - and does have one distinct commonality with Phoenix as well as Albuquerque. In the early 1960s, Del Webb built identical 17-story high-rises in all three cities. Our Del Webb building (SWC of Clarendon & Central) got a face-lift in the late '80s and actually looks pretty good. The ones in Fresno and Albuquerque did not and their original architectural horror has not improved with age. All three buildings were far outside the CBD although Fresno's is probably closest. And interestingly, it could be Fresno's tallest building, which tells you how Fresno never really enjoyed a Phoenix-level boom.

The economies of Phoenix and Fresno were primarily based in agriculture prior to WWII and Fresno's probably still is. It's downtown is almost like any other middling American city's - verging on the comatose but with a few assets worth mentioning. Fresno beats Phoenix hands down when it comes to interesting old buildings in its core. Some are art-deco movie palaces (since reinvented, it goes without saying, for other uses) and others are relics from its pre-war glory days as the commercial hub of the San Joaquin Valley. That energy is almost entirely gone today, but what a nice time it must have been in its heyday.

Fresno's climate is a bit milder than Phoenix's but significantly worse where it matters most: winters and springs are often fogbound, as is the entire Central Valley, making it gray and clammy for half the year. I doubt there were many WWII veterans thinking they'd like to return there after they mustered out.

Fresno's population is around a half million people, and there don't appear to be blood-sucking suburbs leeching its modest wealth. Still, I can't help but wonder what happened to the place. Did agriculture stop being the major wealth galvanizer it once was? Did agribusiness change the dynamics of local economies? Phoenix upped its game significantly in the 1950s and the result is a major American city in size if not those categories of leadership where future prosperity is being determined.

As long as I'm scratching my bald head about this question, I'll mention Winnipeg, Manitoba (where your professional hockey team originated). I've seen pictures of it from circa 1940, and it was jaw-dropping in its beauty. The public buildings were not merely good, they were spectacular. Was there that much money in wheat? Obviously there isn't today as most farm towns forlornly show. Winnipeg itself seems to be treading water - there's even a modest boom in loft-condos. But its climate makes Chicago's seem almost Caribbean and I doubt there are many creative-class types seeking out old brick buildings to house their hot new start-ups. What it does have is Canada's political sanity, which might at some point look very attractive to Americans anxious about their nation's collapse into right-wing psychosis.

Soleri, the Canadian politicos got some serious problems. More later. Im hitting play on The Quiet American.

Man, Soleri and Cal post some great commentary. I love reading Cal's recollections of his days working the mean streats of 1970s Phoenix, and the back-and-forth dialogue between Cal and Soleri. Keep it going, guys.

Ok Chris I put Michael Caine and the quiet American on hold.
Need to understand that Soleri (not his real name)and I grew up about two blocks apart in Sunnyslope, AZ. Soleri comes from a family of brilliant intellectuals ( a long story). I come from a family of struggling peons. Soleri is one of the most intelligent people I know. I consider him on par with Edward Abbey, Jon Talton and Charles Bowden when it comes to the southwest. Soleri operates on logical brain activity and acquired knowledge. I operate on gut instinct and experience. On a good day I can get my IQ up to 100.
And Chris, I may be mistaken but I think we used to make sure your uncle got home safe.
Fresno is a good town, but an Ash tree is a dangerous illegal immigrant. Fresno got lucky; it didn’t have sun and greed.
Dell Webb., oh yah, he was the guy the Chicago mob let live to build Las Vegas and Sun City after they erased Bugsy Siegel and Mr. and Mrs. Gus Greenbaum of Phoenix. U know, Gus was in charge of the Phoenix book for the Chicago boys in the back room a t 12 street Auto Parts. Noteworthy is that after they killed the Greenbaums the killers used the same steak knives to finish eating the steaks the Greenbaums had been barbecuing.
Canada has got fracking greed. May they get shut down by Obama.
Hit play Peludo, I’m gone

Good nite Vietnam.
Thomas Fowler

Fresno has William Saroyan, and Phoenix has...well...but if you want to understand how the central valley came to be so dingy and depressed over the last fifty years, you have to admit that I-5 bypassed many of the towns, and that must've hurt some. But you'd really have to read the government-suppressed Arvin-Dinuba Report by Professor Walter Goldshmidt (probably spelled that last name wrong.) Local prosperity and community investment kind of vaporized with the passing of the family farm. The report itself is hard to find, but Googling can provide the basic, fascinating story around it.

If you'll read past posts, first soleri got mad, then he got gone.

The only solution people find for Phoenix's ills is to leave.

AZ Reb, leaving Phoenix is not a solution except on a personal level. I understood 20 years ago there wasn't really anything I or any other individual could do to turn that sprawling mess around. It's fate had been determined by the cumulative weight of 60 years worth of bad decisions coupled with bad timing. Cheap houses, cheap gas, cheap water, plenty of cheap land and presto! Another sunbelt dystopia hatched in America's post-war euphoria. When we were prosperous it didn't matter. Now that we're not, it's staring at us like a drunken brontosaurus. You don't put that creature on a crash diet. You do what we've always done and pretend it's really something completely different - say, a gazelle. It's how people keep their sanity living in a city that is not worth caring about.

a drunken brontosaurus.
Phoenix USED to be a nice TOWN.

Cal, Portland is a nice CITY. Phoenix chose to be a metastatic suburb and the results speak for themselves. Portland shows love almost everywhere you go. People care about this place (and not in a right-wing, I've-got-mine kind of way). You can't help but sense the deep sanity this place inspires.

I remember Phoenix when it connected people instead of isolating them. Even lowly Sunnyslope had its niches and corners where people came together. To look at my old hood or Phoenix overall is to realize that cars and their spatial requirements are the primary criteria of civic design. You don't love Phoenix. You love your car.

Undoing the damage done to Phoenix (and by extension, to the people living there) will be next to impossible. I've seen the proposals in this blog - bulldozing everything outside the original townsite, etc. But that's not going to happen in the real world. Love it or leave it.

The second week I was here in Portland, I sold my car. It's a small step to a bigger idea. Love runs the gamut from warm and fuzzy to an ethical imperative. Portland clarifies that meaning. Phoenix simply pretends it doesn't matter.

Seattle is much the same way. People love the city — and the city is full of things to be loved, and at a walkable pace.

I didn't leave Phoenix, but was thrown out. Still, thousands of people depend on this blog for a dose of reality. And Phoenix does matter because of the huge costs and tragedy it will impose in the future.

It is the home of my heart, even if that home is only a tiny part of the migropolis. Can't help it. Love is that way.

Salt Lake City is the center of a colonial empire, thus it enjoys the accumulated tithed wealth from its periphery -- Arizona, Idaho, Colorado, California, Texas, Mexico.

Cities have suffered in much the same way -- local businesses got bought out by corporations or went under trying to compete. Now Boise, Denver, Fresno, Phoenix, et al, are part of the colonial landscape. Everything of value is stripped away to be sent to the HQ of whatever corporation has its finger in the pie. My hat is off to Eddie Bashas (RIP) for a minor economic miracle or good business practices.

I've been to the Hi-Liter, but never to Durant's!

"Soleri comes from a family of brilliant intellectuals ( a long story)."

Cal does not realize this, but I am actually the smartest person ever to have occupied space in Sunnyslope. I spent two summers as a lifeguard at Sunnyslope Pool and all of my friends from that era can tell you what a whiz-kid I was.

Hell, I must have destroyed 50% of my brain cells in the intervening years, and I'm still smarter than most.

I amaze myself sometimes.

Side-note: a new reply to Reb in the previous thread ("Secession with Benefits") answering his most recent erroneous objection to mandatory auto insurance.

headless, which Sunnyslope pool

I prefer Portland to Seattle now. Prior to Microsofties, Seattle was a place with character rather than a yuppie cluster. Phoenix is the place I call home although its heat and reactionary politics makes all practical matters uphill for me. Having said that, it allows me to flow anonymously through different activities much easier than in Seattle or Portland where requirements are more closely scrutinized and standards more strictly applied.

headless said, "Having said that, it allows me to flow anonymously through different activities much easier than in Seattle or Portland where requirements are more closely scrutinized and standards more strictly applied."
so U R a hacker?
Which Sunnyslope pool or what years?

Headless never said that Cal.

U R right.
But he did say Pool?

He's Sunnyslope. Homeless prefers Durant 's, Hi-Liter and Bandaids. Any replacement for the Mecca?

Phxsunfan: "The ultimate in clothes. The only totally and truly American civilian suit. "
Cab Calloway, The Hepsters Dictionary. 1944.

Lash -- "headless, which Sunnyslope pool"

The one near the highschool

Homeless -- "Prior to Microsofties, Seattle was a place with character rather than a yuppie cluster."

I also have a problem with a guy who would call himself a 'Microsoftie'. It ain't natural.

The pool next to the High School was bulit around 58 or later. The original Sunnyslope pool was at 1st avenue and Dunlap (originally Olive) avenue on the NE corner.

What year @ Sunnyslope Pool? I worked as Rec Aide in '67.

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