« The price of admiralty | Main | Storm warnings »

October 29, 2012


Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

I have to wonder how many scholars will use the Goldwater archives in a year's time. Would there be five scholars a week? Ten? And who would tour the Goldwater museum? (Try explaining who Goldwater is to anyone under 40 and ask them if they'd visit such a place. "And here's his HAM radio equipment...that was a way to communicate before cell phones and the internet....")

The Republic's article had a quote about the economic impact of museums in general but I just don't think this is an economic engine that will be significant and important to keep in Phoenix.

I'm sure it's well funded and intended to be a monument to conservative thinking. Their decision to not contribute to the development of downtown Phoenix also echoes current conservative policy. Barry would have done it differently, I'm sure.

”I take my role as regional leader very seriously,”
If you look at this and similar previous statements Stanton it sounds like he is running for higher office before he even gets a play set of plastic spurs, let alone real spurs. I hear old echoes of Georgia.

Scott Smith knows what he is doing in Mesa and he can connect to other strong LDS boys and girls at the legislature. I think Stanton and the Phoenix city council is no match for Smith.

Like the Goldwater institute, the Goldwater Library has been kidnapped by the White Right.

Clusters create sums greater than individual parts. The independent cultural value of the Goldwater Library maybe an interesting discussion, but cultural and economic clusters are usually built one piece at a time.

Rogue, reflecting on your Sunday column discussing the state of matters in 2062, might not Mesa become the urban center of the proud Mormon tilting region of Maricopa and Pinal Counties 50 years from now?

How much will gas cost?

Jmav. "Clusters create sums greater than individual parts."

Regarding the White Right, did U mean, aggressive killer cancer?

Will the DNC have a big enough dose of Chemo to getem all or even enough to qualify for remission?

Here's the column jmav mentioned:


Mesa 1878

Phoenix 1881

Phoenix is a suburb of Mesa.

I cannot read the linked AZ Republic article (I refuse to pay for it) so I could be repeating what is in there. However, from what I have heard, there may have been a few good reasons to let this one go.

First, apparently the library folks insisted that the City give them land in the downtown core for the library. That's fine in theory. The sticking point for the City (and one that I don't necessarily disagree with) was that the library insisted that they build a single-story structure. The City wanted to incorporate the library into a larger development as that would be more fitting for downtown and the desire to increase density. Dumping more and more single-story lighter use facilities in the core isn't really helping achieve density.

Second, the library is not fully funded, but it wants the land tied up now. How many times have we heard this story played out downtown---give me the land and entitlements, and someday I'll build. Only, I never build and there's another lot that sits vacant, but thanks for the free land.

So the question is whether it made sense for the City to give away prime real estate for a single-story building that will not bring substantial economic activity. Perhaps the City dropped the ball, but I'm not convinced.

I say they should have put the thing in Park Central in the old Goldwater's. That's already an underutilized single-story structure. And in many ways it would be fitting.

I do think Smith is an outstanding Mayor, and I wish he would have ended up in Phoenix. That said, I'm not necessarily pissed at Stanton on this one (I am pissed about what he let Sarver do, but that's a different story).

Park Central is good. Just get the DNC to give up their one story on the Corner of Central and Thomas. How about the NE or NW corner of Central and Camelback. After all Barry and Camelback were fairly synonymous. And there are a number of other possiblities along central. I think the council let it get away.

Scott Smith reminds me of the Udalls. He is very intelligent, pragmatic and reasonable in his approaches. He did hire Frank Milstead as Mesa Police Chief and you can get much better than that. Interesting that the valley now has three outstanding Police Chiefs in Mesa, Chandler and Phoenix. Will the voters put Arpaio in the "Torture Tractor" and send him off to a black base in Italy?


I must give you tremendous props on your column and the civil, enlightened discussion in the comments. We sure miss you here (where it's sunny and 90 degrees). Keep up the good work.

From Mr. Talton's Seattle Times column linked to above:

"Chief among them: The United Nations projects a world population of 9 billion by 2050. Many will be unemployed. A new generation of robots and automation could make jobs even more precious."

This is one of the reasons why I think that some sort of socialism is inevitable as the next stage of capitalism. There simply won't be enough jobs to go around under a technocratic capitalism using fewer and fewer (but more highly educated) workers. Capitalism views the payment of wages and salaries as a means of profit attainment by owners, not a social obligation.

The depressing (and most likely) form this will take are subsistence level subsidies on basic goods and basic housing, provided by central governments, which will constantly be trying to walk a fine line: providing just enough to keep the simmering masses from boiling over without alienating the well-off with redistributive taxation.

Cutting into the preferred lifestyles of the upper-class and of the comfortable professional class which runs society for them on a day to day basis, could prod them into supporting military coups, particularly in societies where the need to rebudget military spending means shrinking power, budgets, and paychecks for generals and soldiers alike. The increase in crime that is likely to result from increasing inequality and poverty and decreasing standards of living for the majority, would be the perfect pretext.

Other possible trends include the distribution of inexpensive mood-altering chemicals whose consumption makes squalid, subsistence-level lifestyles more bearable; or the mandated use of substances which reduce fertility levels among those exposed to them.

But there is no reason why this needs to be the case: provided that the means of production -- land, oil, minerals and other natural resources; mines, factories, banks, and other capital -- are subject to some form of economic democracy.

This would doubtless mean a form of representative democracy, since businesses cannot be run by committee by the inexperienced; but it does mean that the revenues can be apportioned for purposes of social development.

I do not mean a hand-out: there are vast amounts of useful tasks that cannot be done by robots and software and are unlikely to be performable by them even 50 years from now. These are all things which develop communities, localities, and nations; improve the quality of life, create beauty and reduce squalor, and allow neighbors to look after one another and advance their own interests in the process. At present, these projects are unfunded or underfunded because they do not provide a means for profit by capitalistic owners.

I have to wonder how many would visit the library. I have visited some of the Presidential libraries and have noticed few people there. His house would have been a wonderful venue, but the land was too valuable. I think much of his legacy will disappear with time. Arizona was a much emptier place during his time. Most current residents cannot relate. Barry did not much even like the people that followed him. We used to have some nice talks at the carwash at 40th and Camelback. The carwash has become a restaurant. Oh well....

A single-story, not-open-to-the-public "library" on 5th Ave and Filmore where the city has plans for 2 mid-rise apartment building in a historic neighborhood! I don't think so. That isn't even considering the land the Goldwater library foundation will insist they need for more parking! Give it to Mesa.

Obviously this foundation wasn't interested in putting the "library" in a historic building. Why not remodel the Circles building? Why not build next to the awesome Burton Barr Library? The foundation wanted prime real estate in a historic neighborhood that is seeing new residential development...smells funny to me.

Setting aside Goldwater the Politician,
there is Barry the Person. A good guy, a good photographer, a good Ham guy that my father-in-law chatted with back in the days. Over all I thought Barry was a southwestern transplant that did well by the natives and people in general. I was his brothers paperboy at the Biltmore, but that's another story.
Biltmore Estates stories like Jay Rockerfeller, the Singers, Mr. Gosnell, Sr and of course Mrs Cudahy who never forgot to provide me with a huge meat wheel every Christmas.

phxsunfan, now that's a sickening thought. "5th Ave and Filmore where the city has plans for 2 mid-rise apartment building in a historic neighborhood"

Besides height what is the difference in an ugly multi story apartment complex. Why not just go for the whole ball and make it the worlds tallest, high density living quaters.

If U want to skip the one story library in a historic neighborhood for a high rise rat dwelling. I would just as soon have a botanical garden.

U might want to research the 235 federal funfing housing plan that came about as a result of the ASU rat study.

And have you noted the really short buildings in Mesa

The question asked regarding the difference between a single-story box that would probably look like the MIM and one that could house hundreds of downtown residents on one city block should be rhetorical.

It is not only an issue of sustainability but of smart growth in a city lacking any. We already know, Cal, that you don't like people and think Phoenix should be "1 story buildings and saguaros" but that isn't going to happen.

The rat problem that was uncovered by the demolition of the old Ramada in downtown, would not be an issue for a new project built blocks away that doesn't have an old building with a subterranean structure. The building of the new mid-rise apartments on Roosevelt is case in point.

not going to happen
ask the Hohokam ghosts

I would rather future generations uncover a society that tried to invest in infrastructure and community. That would be better than one which spread its one-story structures across the horizon, speeding up destructive elements like the urban heat island and pollution caused by a sprawling and car dependent urban agglomeration.

Is Phoenix in 2150 the setting for a Sequel to Blade Runner? Or will it end like the Good News novel by Ed Abbey?

Goldwater Library at the store's old site in Park Central . . what a poetic solution . . and what a way to give the memories visibility! Putting it in the East Valley shows how far we've slid. (if there's any good news here it might be that Mesa mayor Scott Smith has enough juice to be the next Gov., which would be a quantum leap forward vs. Bruja)

phxSUNSfan makes the important point-why did this library insist that it be vacant land in the middle of an emerging neighborhood on the edge of downtown? And why did they insist that there by no mixed uses and that development solely be for them? Aren't we past the point where we need to beg for any project to come near downtown given that there is organic growth going on in these areas? How many times do we have to let developers rob us? And why would anyone want a research library at 5th Ave and Fillmore around a bunch of affordable housing for seniors and Native Americans, Salvation Army, and flophouse apartments.

Planning our community and its infrastructure with an eye toward certain demise isn't exactly helpful. On a long enough timeline, all species and civilizations have a survival rate of zero. So do you and I. But the inevitable doesn't mean I just sit on the couch and say "f*ck it. Why bother because it all ends." Nor should the fact that the desert will reclaim Phoenix, the sea will reclaim New York, the swamp will reclaim Washington DC (and it goes on) keep us from improving our situation now.

"How many times do we have to let developers rob us?" -- until there is nothing left to rob.

Senator Goldwater did not strike me as the writing type. What will be stored there? His photography, model airplanes, horn-rimmed glasses, and that famous ham radio set? $30M is a lot of money and where will it all come from? And why hasn't the "Goldwater" Institute stuck their noses into this yet?

Phoenix will eventually resemble the vision of "Good News" cal.

I assume that the Goldwater Institute will sue once the City of Mesa hands over the property to the Goldwater Library people.

OT, but the subject of "armchair activism" or the accusation of "talking not doing" has been occasionally raised here. Rebecca Solnit elegantly explains why I write:

Our Words Are Our Weapons

West wrote: " I cannot read the linked AZ Republic article (I refuse to pay for it) so I could be repeating what is in there. However, from what I have heard, there may have been a few good reasons to let this one go.

There's an easy and simple way around this obstacle, westy. If you use Firefox, choose the "Private Browsing" feature; if you surf with Chrome, use "Incognito Browsing". And if, God forbid, you browse the Web with MS Explorer, then go with "Incognito Browsing."
Each of these functions will allow you to browse as a new user. Once you reach your allotted 20 free articles, simply close the entire window, open a new window, and start fresh. Enjoy!

Petro Excellent Post. Thanks.
Why Jon, Petro, Koreyel, Soleri and others write is because they can.

For clarification (again) I read but I don't write. What you see here is the extent of what I call my "reactive puking."

Had I the smarts and more sanity I might consider "writing" but my "demise" is closer than many that post here, so I am going to use most of that time reading. Right now it's Craig Childs and Water and Charles Bowden and "Killing the Hidden Waters".

So the goal for the visionaries to determine is if there is groundwater on Mars and how many O-otams they will have to kill to take over the water rights.

Oh don't everyone get your man panties in a bunch! The important thing is the Goldwater museum will exist and it will exist in Arizona!!!

Next, I'd like to see the city of Phoenix and the Governor Brewer work together to build a National Climate Warming Hoax Center. Other states have Christian Dinosaur parks and Young Earth centers.

I fear we are losing the race to the top...

Wow Sarah just think how boringly insane it will be in Arizona if Carmona has Corny Flake for breakfast? And The Italian hunk, mister crime stop Penzone beats out the Ugly movie star Arpaio.
Have to move to Georgia just to be entertained.

Very good article Petro.

Sad that Fox News won the War of Words.

I don't think there is much of a mystery here at all. If you read the linked-to story, the project manager for the library was dissuaded by the City of Phoenix's insistence that the library foundation foot the bill for unrelated residential construction:

"Barry Eisenhower, project manager for the library, said the city wanted the foundation that is planning the project to build apartments along with the museum -- something that immediately turned them off."

But there is a little more to it than this:

"The foundation asked the city to donate 2.5 acres for a project that would not have been completely open to the public, he said. It also requested that the city pay for ongoing capital-replacement costs...So, Phoenix asked the (library foundation) group to incorporate two apartment buildings into the project."

In other words, the library foundation asked for a big fat subsidy; the city of Phoenix asked for a quid pro quo; and the library foundation ran to the City of Mesa, which was willing to provide subsidies without conditions.

I'm not sure that I can fault Mayor Stanton on this one, given the conditions: two and a half acres of downtown space that could eventually be prime, as well as "ongoing capital replacement costs" which, though vague, is clearly an annual cash subsidy.

I guess it all depends on how much value you attach to this semi-private Goldwater Museum; what sort of opportunity costs its location in 2.5 acres of downtown Phoenix might entail in future; and the extent to which this semi-masterbatory endeavor would contribute to commerce, tourism, downtown livability, or any other purpose which might justify taxpayer outlay.

No offense to Mr. Talton, who has a clear (and defensible) concept of Arizona history and, quite understandably, wishes to see this indulged a bit for a change, instead of the usual commercial development.

I'm one of the few who view Johnson's 1964 attack ad against Goldwater as brilliant, effective, and accurate, rather than a piece of election-year dirt. So few today remember Goldwater's actual positions on the issue of war with the Soviet Union:

"Goldwater described Eisenhower as a 'dime store New Dealer'...Goldwater differed from Eisenhower's cautious abstention during the Hungarian uprising in 1956. Goldwater believed that the U.S. should have intervened with a force that possessed tactical nuclear weapons."


Here's the television ad (which, I believe, was aired only a few times before it was pulled in response to pressure):


Emil, those links are reassuring in the sense that the far right ideology of today existed in 1964. There is still hope that rationality can still trump the fools who make up today's Republican Party base.

Emil is wise to put a gimlet eye on Barry's record. I'll do more in a future post. And yes, the little girl ad was brilliant and on target.

As for the argument about a one-story building: Better that than endless vacant lots.

I'm sure there is some need for a Goldwater Library, but there is a greater need for a Church's Fried Chicken in our side of Mesa.

"As for the argument about a one-story building: Better that than endless vacant lots." -Rogue

That's the old Phoenix attitude that stuck the city with big box development in downtown with useless sidewalks surround walls. No thanks...

Are there really endless vacant lots in the proposed area? 5th Ave. and Fillmore is pretty well built up. Insofar as there are vacant lots, they should be filled with things that would actually serve the residents of the neighborhood.

Insofar as there was a typo in something and the library was actually proposed at 5th St. and Fillmore, then the library proposal is completely contrary to the whole vision of creating a biotech hub.

We don't have endless vacant lots because the City rejects bad ideas. We have endless vacant lots when the City bites on these ideas, gives the fully entitled land away to the developer, and the developer never ends up building due to funding or other issues.

West, there is nothing on the SW corner of 5th Ave and Fillmore. It is caddy corner from Cibo. I believe there is construction of lofts right now on 4th Ave and Fillmore. There were plans for more lofts on McKinley and 4th. There are apartments (The Fillmore; formerly the Town Apartments) being remodeled in that area (3rd Ave and Fillmore). It is a "mid-century modern" structure which I am not a huge fan of but this is all recent developments:

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.


Post a comment

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

My Photo

Your email address:

Powered by FeedBlitz