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October 31, 2011

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Great piece! Reminds me of a prophetic 80's book, "The 9 Nations of North America". It outlined our regional differences, which have probably grown even clearer. It described Arizona as part of "Mexamerica" and predicted the inexorable blending of cultures. It did not, however, foretell the huge blurring influx of Midwesterners and their ultra conservative views of the world.
Bottom line: I can identify with the Left Coast and many of its prevalent values, causing me to feel like an outcast in AZ where I've spent the past 40 years.

Rogue, excellent discussion! Your well written thoughts in this article have crossed my mind often.

More later.

Sundays Republic had a section devoted to this subject.
But what I see is a planet controlled by a giant corporation and the CEO is a madman. Maybe I will watch Blade Runner tonite.

There would have to be seperate currency, for the same reasons that Krugman said the Euro was unworkable: too many disparities in government policy from one country to the next to put a consistent value on it.I can even see the results of state disparities in the U.S. People who lived out west in these "right-to-work" states all their lives are being displaced by midwesterners from union states,who have cushy pensions and a lifetime of wages we never dreamed of,for spending 20 years or so hanging doors on vehicles, and then have the nerve to come out here and bitch about the unions and taxes, and the blacks, and the illegals, and...well, you get the idea. On the upside, though, imagine how fun it would be watching the other sunbelt states competing to be "blue" so they could get all of those Texas goodies like Nasa, and Fort Hood, and so on. Would oil imports still be controlled from Houston, or would they shift to a suddenly blue gulf state? Which would Exxon opt for, blue or red? Come to think of it, I guess we'd have a freakin' civil war, huh? We have, unfortunately, at least 310 million people now, and I think we need a huge central government...just not the one we have.

Maybe one implicit idea in this post is that this currently peaceful civil war in now a permanent feature of our politics. If that's the case, and if national stagnation is the price we'll be paying for the political paralysis resulting from it, why not simply break up now? The problem is that things will probably have to get considerably worse before that happens. Maybe the irony is that liberals will see the practicality of the 10th Amendment in order to forge sub-national solutions.

I understand the thought experiment here and I think it's wonderful that we talk out loud about a future where the Randians, fundamentalists, and racists are allowed their own sandbox in order to sow mayhem. Of course, Arizona would probably be part of that unless Arizona "devolved" from within (Mohave, Yavapai, La Paz, Graham, Pinal, Cochise, and about half of Maricopa could make up Red Arizona).

There's something called the Northern League in Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_Nord). The issues there are fairly similar to the ones we're entertaining here, although it can't be neatly broken down into a left/right divide. Italy is blessed, paradoxically, by a fairly neat division in terms of geography. In America, our divisions are often county by country, and sometimes even neighborhood by neighborhood.

The political arguments we're having are subsets of a longer, more complicated argument about human nature, theology, and reason that have tormented people since the dawn of civilization. The dark Good vs Evil argument is something we see time and again on the right. The sunnier Hellenic arguments tend to come from the left. This debate will not die until the amygdala (http://biology.about.com/od/anatomy/p/Amygdala.htm )somehow evolves or humans can directly understand the consequences of rigidly tribalized identity.

Devolution appears like an attractive possibility to firewall the spread of the hard right. Soleri is right to imply though that the demarcation for the red and blue divide is not set by state lines.

The hard right's rigidity is fortified by right wing media pundits. We here only one message, therefore only one message exists. The tribal message.

Cal Lash has it right.

People are making this far too complicated. We don't need to worry about climate change or peak oil or many of those side issues. The US will be in chaos before those things matter.

The focus should be on one thing. The government and the Corporations that own it are hell-bent to destroy jobs and make Americans work for Chinese slave wages. There will be a huge deficit of jobs. There will be millions of workers for whom there are no jobs. Many of the jobs that do exist will not pay enough to sustain life. The result will be starvation, or at least massive malnutrition. Flu outbreaks will kill the poorly nourished. Cuts in Medicare will wipe out millions. Cuts in the Food Stamp program will starve out/malnourish millions.

Romney will outsource jobs, globalize, and cut taxes. Every pathology will get much worse. Like Bush, 100% of what Romney does will be totally wrong and will hurt Americans. The purpose of the Romney administration will be to drain all the wealth and put it into the pockets of the plutocrats. Just like Bush!!! The rich profit when workers starve and no one can get health care either.

Within less than a decade, you are going to see great suffering and actual starvation in the United States. Americans are going to starve, in large numbers, before climate change has any imapact at all.

Cal Lash is right. We soon will live on a slave-labor planet owned by corporate entities. A small number of humans will control it and enjoy incredible wealth. Most of humanity will be enslaved and will have short, brutish, desperate, miserable nasty lives.

Why can't you see this coming? Can anyone suggest why this would not happen? Every fact in our possession points to this. The Bible predicts exactly the same thing. Try to objectively find an alternative scenario that makes sense.

When will the food riots start?

When will people realize that going to a university is a really stupid waste of money?

What happens when people get smart enough to give up on college? When do the layoffs of university staff begin?

When will the Tea Party become emboldened enough to say "Just shoot those unemployed losers!" They are already saying it in Florida. They want the police to mow down the Occupy Wall Street crowd.

When will the police/National Guard shoot people who are begging for food?

When will the Republicans admit that we don't have enough jobs to support our population and that to compensate, we just have to let people die off?

Cal:

"But what I see is a planet controlled by a giant corporation and the CEO is a madman. Maybe I will watch Blade Runner tonite."

Or maybe you can find a copy of Pohl's "The Space Merchants". Unfortunately I came up empty on my last visit to Bookman's. Here's a brief plot description from the wiki:

----
In a vastly overpopulated world, businesses have taken the place of governments and now hold all political power. States exist merely to ensure the survival of huge trans-national corporations. Advertising has become hugely aggressive and by far the best-paid profession.
----

Written in 1953.
The guy is an obvious genius.

Thanks Mick,but who knows what's "right"?
Maybe tea baggers! I wan to be the guy in Blade Runner that leaves the little paper chickens around. then I want to watch (again)that same guy play the devil in "zoot suit" then I want to comeback as the park ranger in Black Sun and lay the young co-ed hopefully before the food riots start.
Cal Lash and his dog Spot in their motor home somewhere in the great Sonoran Desert. What's left of it.
Plant a Sahuaro for birds.

Koreyel, somewhere in my stuff I have a copy of Fredrick Pohl's Dream Merchant. I read it back in the 50's when I was reading Asimov and Clarke and Laumer and all those other sci fi folks but my favorite book is a simple little book called "City" written in 46 by Clifford Simak in which the dogs sit around the campfire and discuss if "man" ever existed.

Has anyone researched the amount of phosphorus left on the planet? A essential item for our continued existence?

I'm certain that deliberately starving people is not "right" or morally acceptable.

If you buy that one, then the Republicans and Tea Party are "wrong."

I don't want to live in a nation where people are deliberately starved to get slave labor. I guess I need to leave the United States then.

Mick-I have to disagree that corporations want Americans to work for lower wages. They just don't care, since the only thing that counts is maximization of profits. Whether it takes employees or not is really not relevant. Actually, if they could get rid of all employees, it would simplify things (for them) greatly. We have to change our tax laws so hiring and paying good wages maximizes profits for all taxpayers. For the last 40 years,we have been lowering capital gains taxes which discourages regular income. We should not be surprised that corporations and all businesses have done what is in their best interests. Outcomes are really quite easily determined through manipulation of the incentives.

Corporations surely don't want to pay higher wages. They want wages to fall, one way or the other. They absolutely do care. Have you heard of any employer doling out nice raises? I agree that they are happy to just destroy every job in sight and not have any employees.

So they either want to eliminate jobs entirely, or cut wages.

cal,
http://phosphorusfutures.net/

Also:
"Even more critically in the longer term, the U.S. Geological Survey says that of the 65 billion tons of the world’s known phosphate rock reserves — and the estimated 16 billion tons that might be economic to mine — almost 80 percent is in Western Sahara and Morocco. Add in China’s reserves, and the figure rises to almost 90 percent. The U.S., with 1.4 billion tons, is close to running out. You can see why agronomists are starting to get worried.

"The world is not about to run out of phosphate. But demand is rising, most of the best reserves are gone, and those that remain are in just a handful of countries. Dana Cordell of Linkoping University in Sweden, who runs an academic group called the Global Phosphorus Research Initiative, says we could hit “peak phosphorus” production by around 2030. […]"
http://e360.yale.edu/feature/phosphate_a_critical_resource_misused_and_now_running_out/2423/

The Midwest
Midwestern cities are surprisingly liberal, making the Midwest the second most liberal
region in the United States, according to BACVR’s tabulations. The three most liberal cities in
the Midwest are predominantly African American, pointing to race as an important factor in the
decision to vote for liberal candidates. Also, the Midwestern cities in the top twenty-five liberal
cities list have large African American populations. Interestingly, the cities of the two most
western states in the Midwest: Nebraska and Kansas were the two most conservative ones.

The Northeast
The Northeast region’s cities emerge with an average 60.83% voting liberal and 29.03%
voting conservative- the most solidly liberal region the United States. Nearly half of the most
liberal cities in the nation are from the Northeast, confirming the notion that the Northeast coast
of the United States remains a liberal stronghold.

The West
The West constitutes 68% of the top twenty-five conservative cities and 12% of the top
liberal cities. While California is split between the liberal north and more conservative south,
cities from Utah and Arizona decisively pull Western cities in the direction of conservatism.
Altogether Western cities voted an average of 45.96% of ballots for conservatives and 53.77%
for liberals, which was more conservative than how United States cities as whole voted (42.97%
and 56.97%, respectively

The South
The South came out ahead as the most conservative region with an average of 45.96% of
the its cities’ votes for conservatives and 53.74% for liberals, just barely surpassing Western
cities by fractions of a tenth. Seven cities (24%) of the top twenty-five conservative cities come
from the South. Five of these seven cities are either from Texas or Florida.

www.votingresearch.org

"We have to change our tax laws so hiring and paying good wages maximizes profits for all taxpayers."

Please do not reinforce the misleading description of our fellow citizens as "taxpayers". You are using the language of corporations.

"Has anyone researched the amount of phosphorus left on the planet? A essential item for our continued existence?"

Every morning, my bowl of cereal includes a healthy pile of bat shit.

"the most conservative region"

jmav, how do we define, "conservative"?

The liberal/conservative dichotomy when applied to individuals, and even groups, is false on multiple dimensions. At least, this easy dichotomy is lazy. However, it is useful for keeping the lazy people at votingresearch.org in their jobs.

"We should not be surprised that corporations and all businesses have done what is in their best interests."

We should be astonished that the people who direct and operate corporations and businesses are blind to their long-term interests.

Well jmav you've got your finger on the problem: Even southern cities lean liberal!

The divide in American is no longer between regions defined by compass. Although there are still discernible remnants of that. The divide is between rural America and urban America. And rural Americans exist in ALL states.

Electoral math tells us that the votes of rural Americans count for more than the votes of city dwellers. This explains why State Legislatures have always been skewed to the right. In state after state vast empty conservative rural counties have always over-voted the progressive urbanites. And of course this also explains why George Will and Rick Perry want to repeal the 17th Amendment. They want to empower those rural areas even more.

The same thing translates to our national politics. Inhabitants of rural states have greater political power per capita than urban state inhabitants. The math is indisputable. Someone in Idaho has more say in the "deliverables" of our National Legislatures than does someone in California.

Our Constitutions (National and States) are rigged to favor rural areas. Piecing apart the country won't solve anything unless you simultaneous end the excessive voting leverage given to rural voters.

korevel, and the rural faction has lost all shame in many state legislatures, carving up the districts so it can ram its rural values down the entire state's throat.

Conservative. Liberal. Republican. Democrat. Red. Blue. Progressive. Neo-con. Black. White. Brown. Yellow. Red. Christian. Muslim. Jewish. Hindu. Southern. Western. Middle-eastern.

I am a human being. Keep your labels to yourselves.

In the long run, we're all dead. Some Austrians may dispute this Keynsian wit.

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